I need a break from DU

[GRLMGC]

This new fun wedge issue just inspires violent rage in me so I think I'm gonna take a break from GD to save myself from rising blood pressure.

[MH1]

1. ???

which one ?

Just curious.

Oh and don't go!!! Just post some rants here like...

I FRIGGIN' HATES EM !! I DO!! I HATES EM !!!

THEY CAN ALL JUST BITE ME!

:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

Ahh, now I feel better! C'mon just try it!

[GRLMGC]

2. Immigration is the new wedge issue

And it is obviously working

[MH1]

23. A ha.

I don't see why it has to be a wedge issue though. It is simple:

1) Fix the law (so it is fair and humane and humanely enforceable).
2) Enforce the law (humanely).

Ah but I guess some people differ on what is acceptable in number 1 - what is fair and humane?

And some seem to think we shouldn't enforce the law. Well if a law shouldn't be enforced or can't be enforced, then get rid of it - i.e. refer to #1.

I wish Dems wouldn't argue so much about it though. I basically just ignore those threads.

[JohnKleeb]

3. I dont blame you

Apparently my hometown has gotten a lot of notoriety because of a day worker site that was to be funded with Taxpayer money and it got some national attention. We even have sad to say a local minutemen chapter here and they have had the minuitemen project founder Jim Gilchrist and even Congressman Tom Tancredo speak out here. Its goddamn annoying to have all these outsiders like Judical Watch to act like they know what's best for the town. Its kind of freaky honestly when I worked on a group project for one of my classes last month, apparently my hometown has a reputation of being the "Spanish" in reference to our large Latino population. So while I can't directly relate to what the immigrants face, I know what's going on and know many immigrants myself from school. I think many people here rae opposing a Guest Worker program just because Bush supports it which i think is utterly retarded.

[GRLMGC]

4. His Guest Worker program

is really flawed though. He only wants it to legally allow employers to pay slave wages.

[JohnKleeb]

5. Thats true

Did you see the poll in GD however some people would oppose one no matter what? I think the reason why others are in such support of immigration restriction because on the left I see more and more isolationist bullshit being trumpted out, its bad enough that they do it on foreign policy but economic isolationism is just as wrong.

[GRLMGC]

6. They just need a scapegoat

They feel powerless and the only way to gain that back is to pick on those who have even less power.

[JohnKleeb]

7. I think its scapegoating too

They see as an issue that could reasonate with some voters, I think its a bunch of crap honestly, It really pissed me off when I read in the local papers that Tom Tancredo was in town, the guy is such a big racist and xenophobe who actually is in favor of reducing legal immigration too.

[GRLMGC]

8. Yeah

If there is a hell, Tancredo is headed there.

[JohnKleeb]

10. He's one of the worst

It just amazes me really how the local minuitemen claim not to be bigots then get an asshole like Tancredo in to speak on their behalf. I'll be royally pissed if he runs for president and tries to make an example of my hometown. I don't know where anyone stands on this personally though because this really became a big issue at the end of my senior year and I go to school with mostly people from different towns and because I don't live within town boundaries I can't vote on anyhting either.

[karynnj]

9. It also doesn't connect to any type of permanent worker

program. So,someone could come, work hard, be an asset to the community - but they would still be required to leave, return to their country, and apply from there to immigrate. Meanwhile, they would obviously lost their job.

I also don't know how this impacts people who marry Americans. Locally, there was a story sometime around 2002 of a local man who was here illegally but who was married had a kid and a landscaping business who was deported in the wake of September 11. There were articles that were sympathetic, but he was still deported. I don't know how this type of situation would be handled. If you let people come (and work - even for slave wages), there will be situations like this.

[JohnKleeb]

11. Did you hear about Tancredo;s efforts to deport

the honor student from his district?? I understand people's criticism of corporations and such but I think most immigrants do a great service to the community. I must admit I have taken for granted the diversity I had in school, met people from all over the place who were truly lucky to be here.

[GRLMGC]

12. Why am I not surprised?

And he objects to being called a racist...

[JohnKleeb]

13. The odd thing is that one of his strongest allies

is a former democratic governor from Colorado. On a lighter side though about Tancredo, his PAC is called Team America you know the movie with puppets that the guys form South Park made, same title. He's considering a run for president in 2008 and I think could do well in a place like New Hampshire where many voters are batshit, sorry New Hampshirites its just a real weird state.

[GRLMGC]

14. Well as evidenced by some factions of DU

Liberals can be just as xenophobic

[JohnKleeb]

16. Of course

Thats nothing new, I am learning about the Progressive Era in US History right now and many of the "progressives" were quite xenophobic. Prohibition was a "progressive" movement but it used ethnic bigotry to promoty it. Ive read that some early suffragettes used ethnic bigotry to try to get their points across.

[paulk]

20. he's more likely to run for the Senate in 2008

if Allard doesn't ... it was in the Denver Post the other day.

if this state elects that ... jackass to the Senate, I'm leavin'.

Colorado has made a lot of progress in the Hispanic/ White divide - it's a lot better than when I first came out west

Tancredo is willing to blow it all up for political gain.

typical Republican.

[JohnKleeb]

22. I'd like to ask my aunt about that since she lives in Boulder

Don't see her that often though. It pisses me off that Tancredo and Gilchrist can come to my town and tell us that they know what's best for us. Who would the democrats run in 2008, I must admit I dont know jack about Colorado politics, beautiful state is all i know.

[paulk]

26. Mark Udall is the odds on favorite

it will be an interesting race, and a guage of where Colorado is politically. Udall is a true liberal (unlike Salazar) from CO 2 (Boulder).

He'd have a decent chance against Allard, who barely won both of his races, and isn't all that popular, being such a Bush lapdog...

Tancredo - he scares me. He's a polarizing figure - willing to take one issue and turn it into an all out war. He's a right wing populist, and there are a lot of people in these parts who will go for what he's selling.

[JohnKleeb]

27. Udall eh

He's the one Colbert interviewed right. Boulder so this means he's my aunt's congressman. I think that my dad met a Udall relative one time. I think you're right though about Udall, I think he could win and I know Allard hasnt won in landslides. Yeah Tancredo is definely what they call a right wing populist, hes quite isolationist and isolationism scares the crap out of me no matter where it comes from.

[whometense]

15. I've been feeling that way about DU a lot lately, too.

We were in NYC last weekend and visited the Ellis Island Immigration Museum.

It was a haunting and fascinating place - SO much to take in.

But there was this totally wonderful cartoon showing an array of fat, prosperous middle class men yelling about how we have to keep the riffraff out of our country. And their shadows, cast huge against the wall behind them, showed all their immigrant ancestors. It dated from about the turn of the century.

The museum was a great place to get perspective on the issue, although how people forget the facts I do not know. My maternal grandparents were immigrants. My paternal grandmother was an immigrant. We all descend from immigrants, except for those who are 100% native american. And let's face it, most of our immigrant ancestors did not arrive here first class.

[GRLMGC]

17. So true

I'm so sick of the scapegoating of powerless people. We're all descended from immigrants who wanted a better life.

[whometense]

19. That's exactly right.

And all the yelling about terrorism now - that's old news, too. There were all kinds of examples of exactly the same sort of xenophobia, dating back over a century. Anarchists, communists - there was even a pocket of anti-Japanes hysteria in the Pacific Northwest dating back to way before the second World War, that I hadn't been aware of.

I do think the combination of republican fearmongering and the common human fear of anyone slightly different is pretty toxic.

[JohnKleeb]

18. Ive been there

You know what a great film that illistrates all this is, Gangs of New York, I absolutely loved that movie because in a way the same fight is fought today and its about Irish Immigrants, and they's my people. I can totally sympathize with the immigrants situation because my great grandparents on my mom's side were immigrants and my one great grandmother never learned the language. My dad's family came here I think on the eve of the civil war probably after the year of revolutions, 1848. Seriously I recommend the movie highly, its great and its prat of why I like Leo DiCaprio now and ther's a great U2 song in it too, The Hands That Built America. I am going be honest here and I know it sounds cheesy but there really isn't a day that doesnt pass when I dont think of my ancestors, thats why I want to learn the Slovene language so bad I guess.

[whometense]

21. That's a great movie. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

24. One of my favorites

The interesting thing to me about it being part Irish and all that was that when it first came out is that this guy I know whos like a year or so older and big on his Irish heritage like me was quite sympathic to the Dead Rabbits and such but his family is quite xenophobic. I mean 150 years ago the Irish were considered pretty low on the American food chain, they still have the sterotype of being fighting drunks which annoys me to no end.

[MH1]

25. Is anyone talking about "riffraff" now though?

Like I said above, I've been ignoring those threads. Maybe some DUer's have been saying that.

But, some of us who want limits on immigration have no problem with immigrants per se - it is the fact that they take jobs from folks like me and drive wages down. So we (or I anyway) would like to see sensible quotas that ensure the US citizen unemployment figure is kept pretty low, while allowing some immigration. Also some sort of work visa program for low skill workers makes sense - but not as amnesty and not as a way for companies to get away with paying low wages or bad benefits. Crack down on the employers who are breaking the law.

And what we REALLY should have done (and still should find a way to do) was make NAFTA work the way it was supposed to - instead we gave the mega-corps carte blanche to exploit workers around the globe - but we were supposed to be sharing prosperity with Mexico so that Mexicans could stay home with their families instead of risking their lives to come here to work illegally.

I can't speak for the rest of DU but I know how I feel about it is pretty common among everyone I talk to. So, if there's anything that seems "xenophobic" in my post, please help me out and tell me what it is.

[GRLMGC]

28. Your views are sensible

but I object to the dehumanization of human beings like some of the views seen here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2188254

I've seen worse, even. Talks of a Mexican "invasion". That kind of talk reeks of xenophobia

[MH1]

31. Thanks, I agree about the dehumanization part.

There is some of that, and it sucks.

But, the first post is correct. "undocumented" means "here illegally." In other words, someone is breaking the law besides the immigrant.

I think if the government cracked down hard on the employers, the employers would start obeying the laws and most migrants wouldn't take the risk to come here illegally because there'd be too little chance of reward, if no one is hiring.

Meanwhile though the only decent thing to do is to work with Mexico and other Latin American and South American countries to make it easier for people to have decent lives in their home countries.

[GRLMGC]

34. That's true

but the term "illegal" is full of derision and it dehumanizes a person. I know people object to getting hung up on semantics but words really do have power

[MH1]

37. True. Hey here's an interesting link I found

http://grades.betterimmigration.com/

It is a "scorecard" site for immigration "reform". I don't agree with a lot of their positions but it does do a good job of explaining the hard-line arguments, and what their legislative goals are.

I would definitely look for alternative descriptions of the legislation they discuss, though. There must be a good reason only 14 senators voted for the Byrd Amendment (Kerry didn't); but you couldn't tell that from this site's description of it, of course.

[whometense]

29. god, no,

I wasn't talking about you (or specifically about DU) at all. I was referring to the general public opinions I hear expressed here and about.

[MH1]

32. Okay - whew!

Seriously though, sometimes I hear "xenophobia!" as a knee-jerk reaction. Like with the ports deal. Even if xenophobia is the reason for some people to object to a policy, doesn't mean that everyone who objects is being xenophobic. But you know that. :-)

[BlueIris]

30. Yeah, it's getting pretty vile in GD again.

Sadly, this isn't the first time I've seen disturbing, horrific promotion of racism and eugenics "strong opinions about immigration" float into that forum. YUCK.

[GRLMGC]

33. God, no kidding

and it really causes a visceral reaction within me that I don't need

[BlueIris]

45. Some advice? Ignore is your friend.

You don't need that reaction. It's not good for the sanity. And the folks justifying their xenophobia with the "it's just my opinion"/"hey, I'm a taypaying citzen" crap...are not worth the mental energy you may be expending being offended by their disgustingness. Just. Not. Worth it. You'll be much happier here after, ahem, some liberal application of the Ignore feature.

[GRLMGC]

46. Agreed

That one poster I hate was on my ignore list but I took him off to respond to his charge that basically all Salvadorans are in gangs. I think I'm gonna have to bust out the ignore function once again

[Mass]

35. I am with you on this.

I started answering to a thread Friday concerning "illegal immigration" and I quickly realized that some people were not talking about illegal immigration (which is already a difficult issue), but of hispanic people in general (even if they are American citizens).

The discussion on immigration in a nation of immigrants is a very difficult one, because it can lead to racism and rejection of a group of people, not because they are here illegally, but because they belong to an ethnic group (Arabic in Europe, Hispanic here). There are millions of people in this country that are citizens by birth, and you can see that some of these people would be happy to reject them because their parents were born on the other side of the country.

In some of the threads on GD, I could see exactly the type of racism and xenophobia that led to the rise of extreme-right and racist movements in Europe. It is really a dangerous trend and unfortunately, it is underlying in some of the posts I have read yesterday, because it is the easy answer. It is one of the reasons I have not posted Friday or today. It was really bugging me.

[GRLMGC]

36. Seriously

There's this one poster I absolutely despise who claims that most Mexicans (because we all know all Latinos are Mexicans) want to take over the Southwest and that they should all be deported. This is what I'm mostly talking about. I can understand the concern about human rights and fair wages. That's a very important issue. However, when it becomes a matter of deporting all the "Mexicans", then it becomes a real problem. As we speak, there's a thread talking about "Mexican hypocrisy"

[JohnKleeb]

38. i personally know someone who does that

Always refered to the Latino immigrants as "Mexicans". To be honest with you, I don't think Ive ever met a Mexican, Ive met people from El Salvador, Ecuador, Peru, Afghanstan, etc but never Mexico.

[GRLMGC]

39. Mexicans are the majority here

so I'm used to being called Mexican even though I'm Salvadoran. I suppose the same stands for people being assumed to be Cuban in Florida, Puerto Rican in NY etc. I do find it bizarre that for such a low Mexican pop. where you live, people still refer to all Latinos as Mexican.

[JohnKleeb]

42. Salvadorians are the big ones here

I think it was because of his folks honestly why he always said Mexicans. I think my brother knew a guy from Mexico but personally most Ive met are from El Salvador.

[Mass]

43. Stereotypes by people who should know better.

Sometimes, people ask me if I am Hispanic because I speak with a foreign accent. Go figure.

[GRLMGC]

44. Well you must be, being a foreigner and all

:sarcasm:

The ignorance is remarkable

[globalvillage]

40. The "Mexican hypocracy" OP has been called out.

So it's not all bad over there.

[GRLMGC]

41. Yeah

but one of "us" agrees with him. That's greeeat

[TayTay]

47. What is so sad is how easily this argument degenerates

into old-fashioned stereotyping and racism without people really looking at the issue. A lot of people who come here looking for jobs are going into low-wage positions that are without benefits. Wages are garnered for social security that will never be collected. (Undocumented workers do have to pay into this system, they will just never collect what they paid in.)

The main question is never asked or answered in the xenophobic threads: who benefits from this system? The US government, in a way, benefits because they can collect 'free money' that they don't have to repay in any future entitlements, and corporations benefit because they can use the fact that a worker is unable, by definition, to organize and demand better conditions and pay to depress wages.

This sytem does need reform. But it needs sensible reform. If someone has been in the country for over six years and has put down roots as a responsible citizen, then we need to ask what possible good can come from deporting these folks. Who is getting hurt here in the end? (Does anybody else hear an echo in this debate to the discussion of the 'worthiness' of Katrina victims in MS and LA and the notion that some victims were not worthy of help? Didn't the RW spin to their followers that some Katrina victims were just bad people who deserved neither help nor compassion. Hmmm, those were perceived as 'brown or black' people as well. Hmmmmmmmm.)