Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Something interesting to note about the Feingold v. Kerry crap we get

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Democrats » John Kerry Group Donate to DU
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 10:57 PM
Original message
Something interesting to note about the Feingold v. Kerry crap we get
all the time.

Whenever Kerry does something noteworthy, which is just about every day lately, the attacks in GD & GDP increase. And when they do, Feingold's name is brought up again and again and again like a mantra. Well, I just checked out the Feingold forum. They are a group of supporters who talk about their guy the same way we talk about John Kerry. They don't sound at all like the attackers in DU who use Feingold as a weapon against Kerry. And they don't even have that much activity in the forum compared to the plethora of Feingold "supporters" who come out of the woodwork whenever Kerry is in the news.

I really don't think the people who try to stir up trouble and try to create a rivalry between Kerry and Feingold supporters are actually Feingold supporters at all. Combine this with the right-wing talking points they use and it really makes me suspicious.

When you look at it this way, it becomes pretty obvious that there are right-wingers posting here with the express purpose of trying to create friction between various DU factions. We can't take the bait. Feingold is a good guy and he's a Democrat. A good one. Of course, I would't be here unless I thought Kerry was the best of the best.

The right-wing is trying to get us to break rank and I think they are doing it right here under our noses. I've always suspected infiltration, but just looking at the number of posts in the Feingold forum as opposed to the number of people who attack in his name and you see the math just doesn't add up. And to be honest, the genuine Feingold people here seem like nice people. We have more in common with them than not. Supporters support. They don't trash.








Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sigh you're right
Feingold and Kerry are both fine senators and guys, why the hell do people like to pit two great guys against each other? Sheesh if I had a senator that was half of what Feingold and Kerry are I'd be very happy. You're right about the genuine Feingold folk they're good people and we all share a common objective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know. Both great guys and ass-kicking senators.
During the Democratic Primary debates, I would watch and cheer for each of the Dems on stage. I LOVED each and every one of them. They made me so proud to be a Democrat. Even Lieberman (that was before he became a Bush bud).

People don't pit them against each other: neocons pit them against each other. Neocons aren't people: they are soulless entities who have lost their humanity. We got to see how this happens firsthand by witnessing the transformation of John McCain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The party's diversity is what makes it great
I just wish people could see that Kerry and Feingold despite their differences ultimately have a shared common goal and that is to make the United States great and to help others around the world in need.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, but
Most Dems have gotten a pass on what they actually said before the war, so when they pop up with their billiance at having voted no, it gets a little beyond the pale. Did you know Feingold said he agreed with the President on much of what he said about Iraq? Where's his apology for being completely wrong?

It's kind of like when he boasts about voting against the Patriot Act when he actually supports about 90% of it. Give me a break.

If they can't even be respectful when Kerry calls for withdrawal from Iraq, then I'd say they're fair game.

I hardly ever have a candidate war, but once in a while it just gets to be too much to take.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You're right about the double standards
I didnt know this about Feingold Re: Iraq and the Patriot Act. I still can't believe those two and NAFTA are the three litmus tests for so many people. If people think like that I guess Ron Paul is dandy and I did see someone call him a working man's candiate. :rofl: Ron Paul wants to gut the mininum wage, all social services, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. HAHAHAHHA
Ron Paul working mans candidate ? HAHAHHAHA

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I swear to god I saw someone say that
They were excusing this left wing site named after Patrick Henry for endorsing him in his reelection bid. One of the evil moderates pointed out what Paul stood for and the guy retorted that Paul was for working people by bringing up his anti Iraq War, possible support of impeaching Bush, etc. Yeah a man who wants to elimiante the mininum wage is for workign people, ain't the world lovely? I am as opposed to NAFTA as the next guy but Ron Paul only opposed it because he's a libertarian wacko.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. and they never look at his reasons for opposing Iraq War
and other things. he would oppose getting involved in Sudan to stop the Genocide in Darfur. and he isn't anti Iraq war as much as an isolationist.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I hate isolationism
Ive been thinking about Darfur and all that. It really breaks my heart. I swear to god we have to do something. The worst sin to me isn't ignorance to me it's indifference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Now wait a minute
Boxer voted for the Patriot Act, and that's okay. Kennedy and Harkin voted yes on NAFTA. Oh, and Conrad Burns voted no, while Baucus voted yes, so if that gets out, LOOK OUT MONTANA!!

Bunch a loons.

Ron Paul for the workin' man. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yep he totally negated the fact that Paul
thinks we should gut the min wage, social programs, etc. It's a double standard isn't it? Oh and I know that they love Harkin who also voted for all three. Speaking of which Harkin's NAFTA vote surprises me in some ways in others it doesn't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. A market for food
It doesn't surprise me too much, it was really pushed to farmers that they would have new markets for their crops. That was right after we went through that whole 80's thing with farmers going bankrupt. So I can see where Harkin would vote for it, based on what was supposed to happen.

Burns probably voted no because he had the MT ranchers and had to look out for the loggers and trade with Canada. Baucus, otoh, did have to appeal to ranchers which is why he probably voted for it. They're called wheat ranchers in MT. Weird, huh?

Kennedy, now that one surprises me. I've got no idea why he voted for NAFTA at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Right I didnt see with Harkin at first
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 12:12 AM by JohnKleeb
because Iowa has a large union populartion but its bigger with farmers. Kennedy you know I really don't know why he would have supported it. NAFTA is not a simple left or right issue in my opinion. Some of the staunchest critics of it like Pat Bucahanan are on the political right while others like Dick Gephardt are on the left. Speaking of Gephardt I always thought it was funny how people thought he and Lieberman were two peas in a pod though they're very different politically and personally.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. People are more than votes
That's for sure. And they're also more than a sound bite, which is why people get mixed up on stuff like immigration and NAFTA. The solutions politicians are proposing are important, and like you say, when the solution is isolatism, then that's not a good thing. No matter how they appeal to the raw emotions people have about jobs, and yes racism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Isolatonism as Ive said scares the crap out of me
It to me is why Hitler was able to come to power and was able to expand the Third Reich. Europe stood by and did nothing as Hitler basically took over Czechoslovakia. I understand and realize how terrible the first world war had been but Edmund Burke was right the greatest evil is when good men do nothing. Economic isolationism would be a mistake too in my opinion, we need a balance for in my opinion our economy to work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Been trading forever
Civilization and knowledge expand with trade, that's how the whole thing works. Are people ready to give up choclate and coffee? That's how silly the trade argument is. We've sucked the resources out of the world for most of its existence, at the expense of the rest of the population. Now we've got to figure out how to leapfrog billions of people over a hundreds years of industrialization so that they aren't left out their starving to death. Not only is it the decent thing to do, it's self-preservation when they get mad and blow your shit up!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. right I learned that in history
That trade was how ideas were expanded. I'll give up coffee because I hate it but not chocolate. Isolation would be such a huge mistake for our country to make.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Chocolate, not me either
I love my morning coffee, but if I had to choose... chocolate??? NEVER!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. You know chocolate has a fascinating history
I learned about it in a presentation the other day. You can thank the Swiss for fillings in chocolate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well god bless 'em
And whoever did that whole milk chocolate thing too, YUM!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I think that was America
You know they invented the airplane too, those bastards ;).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Likely for similar reasons to Kerry's
Tay Tay posted Kerry's floor speech before NAFTA, which he called "What's NAFTA Got To Do With it?" which pointed out that the outsourcing of jobs was already occuring and suggested that legislation was the way to get some side agreements on labor and environmental issues. NAFTA was pushed very very hard by both Clinton and Gore. Gore very capably debated Perot on the issue. The side agreements seem to have lost after implementation.

The other thing is that most economists wrote favorable (though some included cautions) opinions. The other thing I get from Kerry's speech is how close the overall description of the underlying economic issue is to the ideas he still expresses. In 1993, he seems to say this bill is slightly better than the status quo. By 2005, in the confirmation hearing for Porter, he was saying that all the trade bills needed to be adjusted. During the CAFTA hearings, he said that both the Mexican peasants and Americans were hurt by NAFTA, which was part of his reason for voting against the even worse CAFTA. (I suspect a President Ted Kennedy of a President John Kerry would have put the worker and environmental controls in the bill and could possibly have ended up with a bill that helped more than hurt.)

From Thomas:

Kerry: Mr. President, not a day goes by now without significant change in our economy.

And not a day goes by when the opponents and the proponents of NAFTA do not seize on the story as evidence for their cause.

To paraphrase a line from Tina Turner, when it comes to the sea change underway in America today, what's NAFTA got to do with it?

The answer, Mr. President, is, much less than we are led to believe.

Opponents claim the treaty will cause our jobs to go south and cheap goods will come flooding back in, sending more jobs back south.

But the fact is, many jobs are going south now, unimpeded and unregulated by the environmental and labor law controls that NAFTA would impose for the first time between our two countries.

And as for those cheap goods, the tariff barriers in place today are mostly Mexican, not American. Their tariffs are 2 1/2 times larger than ours, on average. It's our goods that are prevented from going there, not the other way around. But you would never know that from all the anti-NAFTA rhetoric.

The proponents of NAFTA will tell you something like 200,000 net new jobs will be created in the United States by the year 1996. No new job is to be sneered at, but 200,000 jobs is approximately what the U.S. economy created in one fairly mediocre month, July of this year, in the middle of a so-called jobless recovery.

Let's put this job promise in perspective. Two weeks ago an article in the New York Times estimated that electronic bar code readers alone--the devices that so fascinated George Bush last year--bar code readers alone have eliminated 400,000 jobs in America.

So, what's NAFTA got to do with it, indeed.

It strikes me that in reality, the debate over NAFTA is not a debate about who's right and who's wrong. It's a debate about the future--about placing a bet on the future, on how the Mexicans will act, and how we will act.

The NAFTA opponents believe that the bet is too risky, because the Mexicans will not live up to their agreements. But the truth is NAFTA is not risky because of what the Mexicans will do--it's risky because of what we are failing to do for ourselves right now. It is a risk augmented by our failure to enunciate and aggressively pursue a national policy for the creation and retention of high-skill, high-wage jobs and preparation of our current and future workers to perform well in those jobs.

And in the absence of a clear, unmistakable, and forceful national strategy to create those jobs and move our workers into them, NAFTA might very well be doomed, a scapegoat for the much larger frustration in our country over our failure to deal with the massive changes underway in the economy, changes which are pushing up to 70 percent of our work force down the ladder of opportunity--changes which promise to claim more workers if we do not take action.

In many ways, we are witnessing the most rapid change in the workplace in this country since the postwar era began. For a majority of working Americans, the changes are utterly at odds with the expectations they nurtured growing up.

Millions of Americans grew up feeling they had a kind of implied contract with their country, a contract for the American dream. If you applied yourself, got an education, went to work, and worked hard, then you had a reasonable shot at an income, a home, time for family, and a graceful retirement.

Today, those comfortable assumptions have been shattered by the realization that no job is safe, no future assured. And many Americans simply feel betrayed.

To this day I'm not sure that official Washington fully comprehends what has happened to working America in the last 20 years, a period when the incomes of the majority declined in real terms.

In the decade following 1953, the typical male worker, head of his household, aged 40 to 50, saw his real income grow 36 percent. The 40-something workers from 1963 to 1973 saw their incomes grow 25 percent. The 40-something workers from 1973 to 1983 saw their incomes decline, by 14 percent, and reliable estimates indicate that the period of 1983 to 1993 will show a similar decline.

From 1969 to 1989 average weekly earnings in this country declined from $387 to $335. No wonder then, that millions of women entered the work force, not simply because the opportunity opened for the first time. They had no choice. More and more families needed two incomes to support a family, where one had once been enough.

It began to be insufficient to have two incomes in the family. By 1989 the number of people working at more than one job hit a record high. And then even this was not enough to maintain living standards. Family income growth simply slowed down. Between 1979 and 1989 it grew more slowly than at any period since World War II. In 1989 the median family income was only $1,528 greater than it had been 10 years earlier. In prior decades real family income would increase by that same amount every 22 months. When the recession began in 1989, the average family's inflation-adjusted income fell 4.4 percent, a $1,640 drop, or more than the entire gain from the eighties.

Younger people now make less money at the beginning of their careers, and can expect their incomes to grow more slowly than their parents'. Families headed by persons aged 25 to 34 in 1989 had incomes $1,715 less than their counterparts did 10 years earlier, in 1979. Evidence continues to suggest that persons born after 1945 simply will not achieve the same incomes in middle-age that their parents achieved.

Thus, Mr. President, it is a treadmill world for millions of Americans. They work hard, they spend less time with their families, but their incomes don't go up. The more their incomes stagnate, the more they work. The more they work, the more they leave the kids alone, and the more they need child care. The more they need child care, the more they need to work.

Why are we surprised at the statistics on the hours children spend in front of the television; about illiteracy rates; about teenage crime and pregnancy? All the adults are working and too many kids are raising themselves.

Of course, there is another story to be found in the numbers. Not everyone is suffering from a declining income. Those at the top of the income scale are seeing their incomes increase, and as a result income inequality in this Nation is growing dramatically. Overall, the 30 percent of our people at the top of the income scale have secured more and more, while the bottom 70 percent have been losing. The richest 1 percent saw their incomes grow 62 percent during the 1980's, capturing a full 53 percent of the total income growth among all families in the entire economy. This represents a dramatic reversal of what had been a post-war trend toward equality in this country. It also means that the less well-off in our society--the same Americans who lost out in the Reagan tax revolution--are the ones being hurt by changes in the economy.

You might say that we long ago left the world of Ward and June Clever. We have entered the world of Roseanne and Dan, and the yuppies from `L.A. Law' working downtown.

Many, many commentators have explained how the assumptions from that long-ago world will cripple us if we do not have the courage to look at today's economy with a clear eye.

Back then, we were the only economic superpower. American companies had virtually no competition and, since they produced almost entirely in the United States, their workers felt no particular threat from workers abroad. This was the era when `Made in Japan' meant something was cheap--not good, just cheap.

Throughout the 1950's and 1960's productivity was rising rapidly throughout the American economy, so that people could expect over time to work less, but earn more.

Back then, free trade for America meant more markets for America, not competition. We maintained the Bretton Woods rules, the GATT, and other treaty obligations not only to buttress the free world against communism, and not only out of the goodness of our hearts; we enforced a basic level of stability in the world because a stable world meant open markets for us, and we made the products people most wanted to buy.

Back then, large corporations and large unions set the pace for middle-class prosperity. Remember it was Henry Ford, no fan of unions, who created the mass production line to turn out cars cheaply--cheaply enough so that his own workers could buy them. When he finally capitulated to the United Auto Workers, he gave his workers the largest settlement of the Big Three.

In those days, Fortune 500 companies controlled well over 50 percent of our total economy, and employed three-quarters of our manufacturing work force. If the New Deal built the floor for personal security in America, the corporate economy put up the middle-class safety net, with pension plans and health insurance.

In those days, American families lived on one man's paycheck, from one job that lasted with one company for an entire lifetime.

If you were laid off, you were laid off for the duration, and you were called back when business picked up.

No more.

And two key words summarize the difference: globalization and technology. Each one feeds the other. Each one confronts American employers with a choice: Can I beat the competition by making a stand in America with my own workers, or must I beat the competition by going abroad? Will my workers join the ranks of the 70 percent falling behind, or will they join the ranks of the 30 percent--or fewer--who will get ahead?

The dynamics of this are familiar to anybody who works. Technology, particularly computer technology, makes it possible to move production anywhere in the world. Technology makes it possible for formerly large corporations to make do with drastically fewer people at home. Remember those bar-code readers.

Increasingly freer trade amongst nations means that competition comes from low-wage workers in developing countries, or from high-skilled, highly productive workers in the industrialized countries. The choice is a stark one: either a nation must secure more technology and become more productive or it must underbid all others for labor and other costs. Most countries understand that this is a choice they have to make.

I submit to you, Mr. President, that this is a choice which we are not making, and the consequence is that the choice is being made for us--toward low costs, leading to the unprecedented wave of downsizing underway in our economy.

Two weeks ago an American Management Association survey reported that nearly half of the companies polled had reduced their work forces in the last year. A quarter reported that they will do so again in the coming year, some for the second or third time in 5 years, and experience shows that the number of companies that eventually downsize is twice the number that predict they will.

Workers who are downsized in today's environment are not out for the duration. They are out for good, and their ability to climb back into the economy is utterly dependent on the match between their skills and the needs of the small and midsized companies which now represent the pivot point for American economic success. Central to this division is skills: those that have them win, those that do not have them lose.

Workers with high skills can reap the rewards of the new technology, which is higher productivity. Higher productivity is not only the basis of increased pay, it is the ticket of admission to world markets, hence to growth, hence to new jobs and higher pay.

Recently Princeton economist Alan Krueger showed that workers who used computers on the job earned a 10- to 15-percent higher wage rate than otherwise similar workers. On the basis of this study, Microsoft Corp., the software giant, ran advertisements in Time magazine and elsewhere declaring `we make it easier to get a 15-percent raise.'

On the other hand, there is a growing disadvantage to not being well educated and flexibly skilled. Workers with lower skills find that technology either eliminates their jobs or moves them overseas. It is this disadvantage that lower skilled

workers face in the new global, high-technology economy that explains why they are faring increasingly poorly in terms of wages and incomes. It is these lower-skilled workers who are having the rug pulled out from under them. And it is no wonder they are scared by NAFTA .

Now, I do not come to this issue as some latter-day luddite, ready to smash bar code scanners in the supermarket and wall off our borders from foreign imports.

I believe that the change we are witnessing--whether we like it or not--is inevitable. What is not inevitable is our passivity, and our inability to make change work for, instead of against, American workers.

In the past few months I have visited any number of companies in my home State of Massachusetts that have made technology work for them and their workers. Through aggressive R&D, advanced manufacturing technology, and continuous worker training and involvement, they have maintained and often increased manufacturing jobs in Massachusetts, a State where manufacturing is supposedly dead and buried. These include the Bose Corp., a major player in the Japanese hi-fi and automotive parts market, thanks to its constant innovation; and Modicon Corp., which brought jobs back from Asia when it radically upgraded technology and workplace organization. In my State, you simply cannot create new manufacturing jobs with a low-skill, low-wage strategy. You must go the high-technology, high-skill route, and you must export.

The question is, Are we going to learn from the Boses and the Modicons?

Other nations, notably Japan and Germany, have structured their entire economies around the goal of employing their citizens in well-paying jobs. This is the goal toward which government, industry, and individuals work together.

This happened in part because they were poor in natural resources and had small home markets. And so in order to become industrialized nations they were forced to export. At an early stage, therefore, international competition became their obsession. And economic considerations often dominated foreign and security policy. They were not afraid--in part as a result of cultural differences--of an economic model where big business and big government worked together to promote long-term job creation.

But in this country, Mr. President, we are still lacking a strategy that sends out an unmistakable signal to every American that the highest priority of the American Government and American industry is ensuring that Americans have the ability to get good

jobs--maybe not one job for their entire lives, but one or a series of jobs that will support their families for the entirety of their careers.

This strategy needs to address the insecurity that people feel for their economic future and in order to do so it must recognize the centrality of education and training--two priorities on which President Clinton rightly focused during the campaign.

In 1949, we spent 9 percent of our Federal budget on education. We now spend less than 3 percent. An estimated 83 million Americans have inadequate reading skills and the United States is the only major industrialized nation in the world with no formal system or structure to facilitate the school-to-work transition. Federal support for vocational education has declined approximately 30 percent in real dollars over the last decade. Meanwhile, such competitors as Germany spend dramatically more on training the best educated and now the highest-paid workers in the world. American students attend school for 180 days per year while Japanese children go to school for 243 days and German children for 240 days. This means that our children attend school for 25 percent less time each year than their future competitors.

This is unacceptable. There is no question that our priorities have become skewed. The space station will cost us $2 billion this year, while the Federal Government will spend only $630 million on primary and secondary education. Over 80 percent of prison inmates are dropouts, and they each cost us between $15,000 and $30,000 per year to incarcerate. This situation is totally unacceptable.

We should be prepared to use any mechanism necessary to find more money to invest in our one true asset--our people. We can find this money in pork-barrel projects; in entitlement programs; we can reexamine the issue of the gas tax--surely Americans would be willing to pay a few more pennies a gallon to educate our children for the global competition they will face. There are many other places we can look for the resources--if we are serious and committed to the objective.

We need to begin by quickly funneling more money into our education budget. I strongly support Senator Jefford's suggestion that we add money to education spending in increments of 1 percent of the Federal budget until it accounts for 10 percent in the year 2004. I also agree with Senator Simon and Senator Dodd that we must abandon property tax supported education which leads to inequities among school systems.

Next, we need to quickly put in place the School-to-Work Program on which the President and Senator Kennedy have been

working. And we must not be shy about fully funding these, either. This is no place to be penny wise and pound foolish.

We must quickly enact the Worker Adjustment Program that Secretary Reich has been drafting--and I believe that we should attach it to the NAFTA as part of the implementing legislation to ensure that full help is available for all workers who need it. In addition to streamlining our disparate adjustment programs, this plan would make unemployment insurance flexible so that workers could use it as income support while they retrain--a need that did not exist when the UI system was designed to buttress workers who were temporarily laid off. It will also put the Federal Government in the business of smoothing out the labor market's information flows--so that displaced workers can find out where jobs are, what kinds of skills they require, and how they can obtain them.

And I believe, Mr. President, that we should go beyond the administration's current proposals and create an Incumbent Worker Training Program. During the campaign, President Clinton discussed encouraging companies to train their workers and I feel that we must return to that concept. We cannot wait to do this until our companies lose the global competition and our workers are downsized out of their jobs. We must help them retain the jobs they have by ensuring that they are the most technically adept in the world.

But it is not enough, Mr. President, to say `if we train them, the jobs will come.' Because the jobs may not come. A recent 2-year study of the American system of capital investment by researchers at the Harvard Business School raises the question of whether U.S. companies are sufficiently focused on the long-term to be competitive and to create high-wage jobs.

The report points out that leading American firms in many industries are outinvested by their Japanese counterparts; that the R&D portfolios of American firms include a smaller share of long-term projects than those of European and Japanese firms and that American firms invest at a lower rate than both Japanese and German firms in intangible assets--such as human resource development. The report relays the fact that American CEO's believe that their firms have shorter investment horizons than their international competitors. As a result, they sometimes confuse cutting back and downsizing with a solution--restructuring may give a short-term lift to a company's stock but unless the savings are invested in productive assets, it will not help the company compete better with its German rivals over the long run.

This would explain why the Bose Co., which I mentioned a few moments ago, feels the need to remain proudly privately held in order to continue investing in R&D and its workers without

pressure from Wall Street? Surely something needs to be changed if our capital system forces companies to take a short-term view when their international competitors are resolutely focused on the long-term.

In order to encourage U.S. companies to invest in their long-term growth, we must make permanent the R&D tax credit; we must put in place a full capital gains tax cut for long-term investments; we must make available support for the Department of Commerce's Advanced Technology Program as well as its manufacturing extension programs; and we must take the lead in communicating that both the private sector and the public sector should make people the center of any industrial policy.

There is plenty of evidence that the Mexicans have learned the lesson from Germany and Japan that a national strategy focused on creating high-wage jobs is a necessity in the new global economy. An influential Business Week article pointed out months ago that Mexico has no intention of settling for millions of low-wage jobs supporting high-wage jobs in the United States.

President Carlos Salinas' dream is the creation of millions of high-wage jobs in Mexico. As I mentioned earlier, the real thing for us to be wary of, if NAFTA passes, is not that Mexico will welch on the deal, and not even that ti will comply with a vengeance. What must concern us is that we will fall short.

After all, it is President Salinas who declared 6 years ago that he would slay hyperinflation, drastically reduce debt, and liberate job creation in Mexico. That's exactly what he did.

It is our political system which declared that it would eradicate the Federal deficit, and create millions of well-paid jobs to replace those that went abroad in one long `morning for America.' Need I say more?

So, Mr. President, when it comes to trade with Mexico, we have met the enemy, and it is us.

Millions of Americans understand this in their bones. They understand our stake in following the path of high-skill, high-wage jobs, and in electing Bill Clinton last year they expressed their belief that Government must play a role.

But when it comes to NAFTA , Mr. President, a treaty that even proponents concede will create some short-term job loss, the debate has become a game of `who do you trust?'

And the people are not in a trusting mood.

We have yet to see the implementing legislation or to have an inkling of how much money will be found to pay for cleaning up the border or providing training for workers. We have yet to see if we will invest in the American worker before we increase his vulnerability.

With so much of the NAFTA package left to be seen, to, at this time, call the package a resounding success or a resounding failure seems somewhat premature.

We should use NAFTA as the wake-up call to attend to the real agenda of this Nation. We should do what President Clinton called on us to do in his campaign, put people first.

My urgent plea to the President, and to the leaders of my own party is that we go back to the people, back to the same dialog from last year's campaign about putting people first, and that we resolve to enact a clear and effective strategy for ensuring each American the means to find a job paying a livable wage throughout his or her lifetime, no matter how the international economy may buffet us.

I would like to thank the distinguished Senator from North Carolina for permitting me to make this lengthy statement.

I yield the floor.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Kerry believes more in business
Especially back then. From what I gathered doing various reading, he was a kind of "new" Democrat in that he thought maybe business had been regulated too much, and his budget and other kinds of views he has/had. So I get his support of NAFTA.

Kennedy though, not so much. I would have pegged him as more in Gephardt's camp. I remember reading about JK not supporting a minimum wage increase, buying into the right wing arguments, and Kennedy shaming him by asking him what kind of Democrat doesn't support minimum wage. I don't know whether that's a true story or not, but Kennedy has always been square on the side of unions and workers. That's what is surprising about the NAFTA vote. I'll have to read more about his opinions, it will be interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I hope he's come around, then
I have to admit, I find unfettered-free-trade/pro-big-business crap WAY more distasteful than probably any other policy position a pol can hold. I know he voted against CAFTA, but let's just hope the story you heard is either not true or represents something he no longer believes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I think so
I like someone who is willing to take a look at all sides of any issue. It actually sounds kind of like classic Kerry, considering all angles of anything before deciding. He may even be one of those people who will play devil's advocate just to make sure all views are heard in a debate. But I think he always intended trade and jobs to be more balanced than this nightmare we've got today. I think "the promise" was that corporations would go into foreign countries and build economies and put people to work, selling in THEIR countries; not the outsourcing and selling back to the US we've got now. Not to mention completely ignoring environmental and labor laws. I don't think that was ever part of Kerry's vision at all.

Like I said though, I would have thought Kennedy would have been more like Gephardt, protect the worker first. Just surprised by the vote, that's all. One isn't necessarily totally right and the other totally wrong, the balance is what's needed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Kerry is definitely for open markets, but his
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 03:15 PM by ProSense
position has been clear. He made a statement when he voted against CAFTA.

06/30/2005

John Kerry: CAFTA is a Giant Step Backward

John Kerry spoke on the Senate floor this afternoon about his opposition to the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA). The remarks that follow are as prepared.

“I have supported free trade for the past two decades. That includes NAFTA, the Uruguay Round, China PNTR, and the many bi-lateral agreements negotiated by the Clinton and Bush Administrations. I continue to believe that open markets and robust trade will benefit America’s workers, consumers, corporations and ultimately our security.

“At the same time, we cannot hide from the fact that the benefits of global economic integration bring some very real costs and some very real risks. For a number of years now I have been arguing that Washington must set out a strategy for trade and better prepare America to compete in the global economy.

“As we know, opening markets sets in motion an economic transition that creates winners and losers. And while we may want to mask that reality in the emotionless language of economics here on the Senate floor, let it be clear that that transition can put hardworking men and women in a very difficult transition as their jobs go overseas, leaving our communities economically crippled. We all know the numbers: since 2001 we have shed nearly 3 million manufacturing jobs and endured 42 consecutive months of economic decline in the manufacturing sector.

“We have long understood that if we want a broad for consensus for free trade in America, we must make these trade agreements work for more Americans. In the 1990’s we initiated steps to find a better path forward.

“First, we looked at the trade agreements themselves and decided we must protect American workers from unfair competition. American workers should compete on the basis of pay, skill and effort - but it is unfair to ask American to compete against child labor and habitually depressed wages.

“In the Jordan agreement of 2001, we set a new standard. We gave basic labor protections the same standing as all the protections we rightly provide corporate America.

“We made a new bargain with the American worker: we will protect your economic interest - your job -from unconscionable competition like child labor, just as we protect a corporation’s economic interest - its product - from dishonest competition like copyright theft.

“In CAFTA we go backward from that standard. Once again, our corporations get the protections they need with an elaborate system of rules, complaint, appeal, compensation and strict enforcement.

“But all our workers get is flowery language with no teeth behind it. We will hear that CAFTA has the strongest labor provision of any trade agreement. That’s good spin - and not much else.

“It comes down to this: There is only one labor provision in CAFTA that is enforceable - a nation’s commitment to ‘enforce its own laws.’

“That sounds good, or at least it sounds like something, but in reality this provision does nothing to protect workers because there is no stipulation whatsoever as what those laws are. Moreover, if the provision does lead to an attempt at enforcement, the maximum so-called penalty is $15 million. I say ‘so-called penalty’ because the fine is then returned to the offending country ostensibly to fix the problem, but without any real enforcement mechanism. “The other labor provisions in CAFTA ask a nation ‘to strive to’ eliminate the ‘worst forms of child labor,’ sweatshop conditions and other problems. But if a nation fails that meager standard, we can only consult. In other words, we can talk about ending child labor in a CAFTA county, but we cannot act to stop child labor. Words alone aren’t going to do much for the kids suffering in the sweatshops, and the Americans off the job.

“I ask my colleagues to consider a simple question: why the double-standard in favor of corporations? Why do Americans not have the same standing to end child labor or sweatshop conditions that corporations have to end copyright and patent theft? Why the double-standard that punishes workers?

“Mr. President, I and many of my colleagues have a long-standing commitment to the development and well being of Central America, and we’re concerned that CAFTA is insufficient to provide for steady and balanced economic growth in the region. The Administration claims that supporting CAFTA is a security issue. I agree - this is a security issue - this is about the economic security of some of the more vulnerable economies in our hemisphere. We must ensure that a trade agreement with Central American countries grows their economies, protects their workers, helps them preserve their sensitive ecosystems, and most importantly, encourages balanced and widespread economic growth and opportunity for all people in the region.

“The most troubling aspect of CAFTA is that its shortcomings, particularly the Administration’s indifference to workers, are part of a far greater problem.

“The fundamental issue we must address is the need for a national policy to make sure America is competitive - the leader in the global economy of today and tomorrow. And the reality is the Bush Administration has no comprehensive strategy to meet the needs of a fast changing playing field.

“What can we do? Certainly, when we negotiate trade deals with nations that have checkered labor records, we must give citizens the same standing to end child labor that corporations have to end copyright and patent theft. It is a pro-trade, free-trade policy that builds consensus and considers all Americans, yet the Administration refused to do this in CAFTA.

“After we have agreements in place, we must defend America’s interests. The Administration must stop bowing down to our competitors. The Clinton Administration brought an average of 11 trade cases to the World Trade Organization per year. This Administration has brought 12 total cases in its first four years.

“The Administration also needs to take action against China’s currency manipulation. This Senate has voted for that, but the Administration refuses.

“And I want my colleagues to know the truth about the Administration’s recent dealings with China. According to our trade representative, ‘counterfeiting and piracy in China are at epidemic levels’ and cost U.S. companies $20-25 billion annually. And we’re told the problem is getting worse, not better.

“But according to press reports, in May the United States presented the Chinese with a list of modest proposals to curtail intellectual property violations. The Chinese rejected our proposal outright. The Administration responded not by pressing the Chinese, but by telling U.S. companies to go file lawsuits in Chinese courts to defend their rights. This is absolutely ridiculous. It’s time this Administration enforced our agreements and defended our own businesses and workers.

“Most of us also heard recently about the Chinese firm seeking to purchase UNOCAL, an American energy company. What many don’t know is that the company borrowed money from the Chinese government to make the bid. That has upset a lot of people and generated a lot of press - as it should. But it should concern us even more that America does the same thing: Since the start of the Bush Administration, the federal government has borrowed billions of dollars to fund our national debt and cover reckless tax and fiscal policies - and billions of dollars have been borrowed from none other than the Chinese government.

“Mr. President, we should also be concerned about the missed opportunities related to Trade Adjustment Assistance. This Senate has supported Trade Adjustment Assistance and tried to expand coverage to service workers and communities. We did this because we understood that the movement to open markets means economic transition. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration doesn’t seem to understand. They have ignored the will of the entire Finance Committee on this issue, who voted to include TAA for service workers in the CAFTA Agreement.

“In the Commerce Committee, Senator Ensign held an excellent hearing on America’s competitiveness. Our Administration witness was the President’s point-person on manufacturing, Al Frink. He told us that he believes there is a shortage of skilled workers in America that is hurting our economy. What the Undersecretary did not say, or maybe did not know, is that the Bush Administration has resisted Congressional efforts to fund worker retraining and vocational education.

“The Administration’s indifference to competitiveness goes further. We have a tax policy that rewards American and multi-national companies for housing operations abroad instead of in the U.S. It’s hard to imagine a more backwards tax policy. We should end it, but for this Administration it’s not a priority - it’s not even an afterthought.

“We also don’t adequately fund the basic science and research that will produce the revolutionary technologies and products of tomorrow. Not surprisingly, fewer and fewer American kids are choosing to study science and engineering. And the Bush Administration has proposed cutting federal research and development spending for the first time in ten years.

“The story is much the same in our public schools. Bill Gates has called our high schools ‘obsolete’ because they fail to prepare our kids to compete. Alan Greenspan said much the same thing before the Finance Committee last week. And yet every year the Administration refuses to fund No Child Left Behind - seeming perfectly content to leave millions of kids behind.

“And while we sit here, the Administration foolishly negotiating trade deals that are indifferent to our workers and fail to defend our interests, refusing to adequately invest science, research and training, and ignoring problems that drain our business like health care, the competition is hard at work.

“While our short-sighted policies stunt our competitive advantage, China, India, all of Asia and Europe have developed long-term plans and strategies aimed at one thing: eliminating America’s economic dominance. They have national programs aimed at educating workers, reducing capital costs and attracting businesses.

“In the Commerce Committee we heard how Japan and the EU are implementing large scale, long range R&D projects aimed at developing leading edge commercial technologies. For example, from 1995 through 2001, the emerging economies of China, South Korea, and Taiwan increased their investments in research and development by approximately 140 percent.

“It is urgent that we consider real measures to advance America’s competitiveness and forge a new global consensus on trade. It begins with a set of rules that make sense to American workers - rules that work for them - even as we open new markets which we must do. We can do better and we need to.

“The bottom line is this: CAFTA is not a good deal for America. The Administration has turned a blind eye toward America’s workers. I won’t do that, and I hope my colleagues won’t either.

“Instead, we should stand solidly for free trade - and more importantly demand a national policy to compete in the global economy on terms that are fair to all Americans. I believe America can stay at the top while making trade fair for Americans whether they spend their day working the boardroom or the factory floor. I believe we can make trade work of all Americans. CAFTA, unfortunately, does not work for working Americans, and I hope my colleagues will join me in standing up for America’s future and voting against it.”


# # #



Statement
Senator John Kerry
Commerce Committee Hearing
"Promises Made, Promises Kept: Are International Trade Agreements
Really Investment Agreements?"
August 1, 2001

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing today. I think it’s important to attempt to examine both the benefits and costs of expanding trade markets and this hearing provides us with an excellent opportunity to do just that.

First, let me just clarify where I stand on trade. I have a long record in the US Senate of supporting free trade agreements, including NAFTA and fast track in the past, and more recently PNTR and the Africa trade agreement. I believe that reducing trade barriers is fundamental to improving the economy in the US, it is critical to the economy of my home state of Massachusetts, and it is also integral to our foreign policy goals.

But, I also think there has been a shift in the paradigm on how we think about trade. From Seattle to Genoa, we have heard that we can no longer think of trade as just about opening markets. It’s no longer a question of free trade versus protectionism. Values and social issues are also going to be at the heart of the debate.

We need to foster a dialogue on how to improve labor standards abroad; how to protect the environment; and how to compensate our workers here at home when they are hurt because of trade.

I think we can find ways to address some of these issues. Developed nations should consider providing grants or tax-credits for companies that invest in clean technologies abroad or provide labor benefits for the workers they hire in developing nations. We should find a way to reward the multinational corporations that adopt standards on labor and environmental practices, and should further encourage them to label their products as environmentally or worker friendly. We should enforce our anti-dumping and countervailing duty laws, as well as take full advantage of dispute resolution mechanisms at the WTO if we believe our trading partners are acting unfairly.

On the subject of whether our trade policies are resulting in lost jobs here at home, I think there is no question that in some industries, especially manufacturing, that is the case. Overall, I believe the benefits outweigh the losses that result from trade. Consumers have more choices, at lower costs, because we have opened our borders to goods from other countries. Our workforce and our valuable resources can be better concentrated where we have expertise. At the same time, we have an opportunity to export our values abroad, engage with other nations and hopefully help developing nations begin to grow their economies as we import goods from them.

But we should not pretend for a minute that contributing to the "greater good" is a fair answer for us to give to the worker in the manufacturing sector who has lost her job because it went overseas. That person needs to find a way to put food on her table, put a roof over her children’s heads and plan for the future needs of her family. To respond to those very real needs of citizens who are being put at risk because of policy decisions we make regarding trade, I am an original cosponsor of legislation that would reauthorize the Trade Adjustment Assistance program so as to provide much better compensation, including wage insurance, for American workers, farmers and fishermen, who lose out as we open our borders to more goods from other countries. I hope this hearing uncovers additional opportunities for us to assist those who are harmed as a result of our trade policies.

We must acknowledge that trade is no longer simply a question of reducing barriers and lowering tariffs. Globalization means recognizing that people care how the products they consume are made. It also means finding ways to ensure that we don’t leave our workers behind as we continue to expand our markets. We must explore new ways to develop a comprehensive trade regime that addresses the needs of our economy, workers and the environment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

http://commerce.senate.gov/hearings/080101Kerry.pdf





The Methanex case is complicating Bush's efforts to win "trade promotion authority," which would require Congress to vote yes or no, without amendment, on any treaty the President offered. The idea is to protect hard-bargained agreements from pork-barrel politicking. The bill passed the House by only one vote last December, as even longtime free traders worried about the potential threat to the U.S. of the Methanex case and other investor challenges. Waving 5,000 pages of trade agreements, Representative Robert Matsui, a California Democrat, argued that new treaties could affect federal laws on matters from food safety to monopolies. "Trade is no longer primarily about tariffs and quotas," he said. "It's about changing domestic laws." In the Senate, Massachusetts Democrat John Kerry wants to amend the bill to make it harder for companies to file claims. "NAFTA was never intended to infringe on U.S. sovereignty in such a way," he said.


http://www.sen.ca.gov/ftp/SEN/COMMITTEE/SUB/BP_INTER_TRADE/_home/Article_3_25_02.doc



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. LONG time ago
The reference was to way way back, like the early 90's, when the economy was crap, unemployment was like 10%, and we hadn't had a minimum wage increase in a while. Kind of like now, especially if you don't believe the cheery unemployment numbers. Like I said to WEL too, he could have just been airing different opinions, for the sake of debate. No big deal to me. I agree with his views on trade, I really do think building economies is the only way to lift the third world out of poverty. He always supported more regulation in the agreements and Clinton should have gotten them, everybody would have been better off today, including those third world workers.

Kennedy, I just would have pegged him a Gephardt workers first kind of guy, that's all. Just surprised at the vote, no biggie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I like Kerry's views on trade too.
I find myself weighing the pros and cons and I can pick out points to agree on, but I read JK's and it really seems like a cool position to me.

I didn't check the minimum wage issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. After all the Kerry bashing it is tempting, but I'm really starting to
think that this is just a ploy to get us to get into it. I really don't think the haters are actually Feingold supporters at all. They are right-wing insurgents.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Some are, some aren't
Some were here during the primaries. Some are new. Some only show up when it's Kerry bashing time. It's a mixed bag.

The one I responded to is a long time DUer, others jumped into the thread. I don't even know where the Feingold guy came from. Most of the ones I've been arguing with are Clark people. I swear they must just have his name in the search and do nothing but jump whenever Clark's name is mentioned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree.
Real longtime Feingold supporters don't do this shit.

But apparently we're not allowed to talk about trolls here. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. But, WEL a picture is worth a THOUSAND words.
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 11:40 PM by _dynamicdems
Remember that RAID ad ProSense posted? Here is the new EXTRA STRENGTH version:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. The good news is that if all those people *are* disruptors
there is actually very little friction between the real Dems on this site.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Well there is friction, but it is being instigated by interlopers. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. delete n/t
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 12:53 AM by politicasista
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. Worse yet
there are real trolls on this board who ban together and systematically launch the worst, obscenity laden, orchestrated attacks on Kerry supporters you could ever imagine - repeat offenders - and never get banned - in fact, one of them did this just last night and bragged that we hope they'll get banned but there's no chance of that happening. I don't know if these guys are someone's friends or what. (!?!?!?) But they are allowed to run amok unchecked attacking again and again. If we defend ourselves, our posts sometimes get deleted. Theirs often stay up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Did you see a certain someone?
:grr: what a coward, is all I have to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Sad thing is...
He looked worse after saying that than if he'd just remained silent...I mean my god, how pathetic. I actually laughed, because it was pretty clear who won that argument.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. good detective work, DD
Since both Kerry and Feingold are toward the left end of the Dems, it doesn't really add up that if you like one, you hate the other. I don't think any of us Kerrycrats are against Feingold on anything. He could be on the same ticket with Kerry, actually, and I wouldn't mind at all. (of course he'd have to be the bottom of the ticket! ;) )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Democrats » John Kerry Group Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC