This is what Dems are up against part 2

[politicasista]

This was from people I always spread the word about Dems in the news to:

"I will always love H. Clinton, & Al Gore..

Kerry is okay at best. He's too wishy washy..doesn't stand for anything to concerned with polling and perceptions..Why do you wanna be president Kerry what are you willing to make a stand on? nice senator I guess.. lol I really love his wife.

I don't think H. Clinton is creative, smart or diverse enough in her political thinking and leadership to be president.

I don't think that Gore has the political drive and strength. Smart guy but he gave up to quickly in 2000.. that wuz his election, he gave it away..he virtually got punked and it's been down hill for all of us every since...He had to get a pep talk from Bill to take it back...and learn maybe I shoulda fought this out.. nice, passionate, sincere guy but not necessarily presidential though. "

I posted this at the bottom of my last thread:

I found out what the deal was: The issue is the Voting Rights Act.

The fresh face is Biden. Seriously. They think he is very smart, calculated and definitely not a "punk" and can think quick on his feet. I also posted the links here about Kerry's environmental issues, but it was thanks but NO thanks. I also told her to be careful with the Republican talking points.



Again, I am not trying to spread any gloom and doom on anyone here, and I know politics is a backstabbing dirty game, but if no one wants to listen to or read the facts, what can you do?:shrug:

[globalvillage]

1. If she's not willing to listen to Kerry on the environment

when you actually hand her the research, then I don't know what to say. What is her objection? You can't say you don't support someone on issues if you don't know where they stand.
Biden? He doesn't show me much. I think he's an OK senator, but certainly not outstanding. Has he done something special that I'm not aware of? Is it all that schmoozing on the Sunday shows?

[politicasista]

2. I don't know right now

The Sunday talk shows may have something to do with it. Maybe they feel like Kerry was our last hope in saving us from four more years of Bush, and when he didn't win, just join in and blame the victim. :shrug:

[globalvillage]

5. They need to watch the recent Boston speech.

No one could watch that and not 'get' Kerry. But really, what they should focus on right now is not the nominee, but the vote and '06.
Is it apathy because they're frustrated? Are they angry?
If it's about the vote, they should be angry, but not at Sen Kerry. Is Joe Biden doing something to protect their vote? Did the rest of the Dems focus on the vote between 2000 and 2004? They can't blame Kerry for that.
We have some serious work to do before the fall. I hope this doesn't keep people away, we need a Dem congress. I'm not really clear on the level of participation of the people you refer to. Are they working to resolve voting issues locally, or just looking for answers from John Kerry and Joe Biden?
And the good thing about hope is that you won't run out unless you let it happen. They can't let it happen.
I really wish I knew what your friends are looking for.

[politicasista]

6. I sent them the text and told them to watch C-SPAN

but I only got a response from one person. They don't understand that the media was a factor in why Bush is in the WH. I wish I understood something too GV. They are card carrying Democrats who are unhappy with the party and will not vote if Kerry, Hillary or Gore is the nominee. They would have had more respect for Kerry if he had "been willing to take a stand and fight." I did post that Gore/Kerry Huffington Post story, but to no avail.

[globalvillage]

7. I would take a hard line.

If you don't vote, you have no right to complain.
They will never get a nominee that they agree with 100% of the time. Never.
I don't agree with JK 100% of the time, but I know he shares my values more than any other potential candidate. So, he's my choice. If he doesn't win the primary, I'll be upset, but I'll still vote for the Dem. Your friends need to look at the nominees in the primary, study their positions, and choose with their heads and their hearts, knowing that they've made the best available choice.
Then, in the general, they need to vote for the Dem, because like him/her or not, he'll do a hell of a lot better by them than the repub. And they need to urge their friends, families, co-workers and anyone else who is willing to listen to do the same.
If they're not willing to do that, their interests will not be represented, and they can complain about who won or who lost for another four years. If they let a republican win because we didn't find the perfect candidate, then they can watch their rights disintegrate further along with everyone else's.
And that's just life.

[jenndar]

8. Yup.

Saying, "I like Kerry (or anybody), but I won't vote if he's the nominee" is not being a voter. It's not participating.

It is not difficult to go to Kerry's, or any other Senator's site, and serch for "Voting Rights Act" and see how many times he's mentioned it. I watch about 75% the Senate proceedings, and he talks about it all the time. It's not difficult to watch C-SPAN, or read the Congressional record, which is free online. In fact, IMO, if you try and compare Senators without watching them on C-SPAN, the comparison is not informed.

[karynnj]

27. Do you think they will change as an election becomes a reality?

Also, I very strongly suspect that Kerry will address the problems that occurred in voting when he does the Kenyon College Commencement address. Some kids there were in line over 10 hours. It is a good liberal school that leans to the left.

In a way, what they are saying is not that they dislike Kerry - but they didn't hear his messsage. So, you passing things to them will help - Hillary's and Gore's negatives are at least as hard to deal with. I love that they love Teresa - it likely says that she helps him. If the environment is a major issue for your friend and she likes Teresa, one subtle way to influence her is to send her one of the stories of how they met (first at an earth day when Heinz and Kerry were speaking then at the Rio conference.). The Brookings speech from early 2004 by Kerry is great. The introduction talks about how committed both Kerrys are.

[Mass]

3. I am not sure what is your question.

If it is that you find people who do not like Kerry, you will always find people who do not like somebody (I cant stand Edwards and Hillary).

For the rest, tell them what Kerry did during these last 35 years, and if they dont want to listen, there is little more you can do with this person. It is a loss of time and energy to try now. Come back in a few months, when things will have changed and when she will be more ready to focus seriously on the issues. In the meantime, keep her aware of what Kerry does.

Now, if the issue is the Voting Right Act, there is little to be said against Kerry on the issue (nothing that I can quote from memory). I would be surprised that Kerry was better than him on that. But once again, if she does not want to listen, there is little you can do.

[politicasista]

4. If was more of an observation

If Kerry is going to run again he is going to have to defend the RW lies that have been bought into of fed by the media. This is the kind of things I hear from AA regarding Kerry. They like him, but....(fill in complaints here) I heard it from my college friend, some family members, and so on. Really.

[wisteria]

15. All of these talking points can be refuited. I am sure Senator Kerry is

smart enough to realize what needs to be done. Besides, time has a way of making people see things differently. I am surprised you can not dismiss their right wing comments for what they are-nonsence.

[politicasista]

18. I tried that, but it was "point proven"...

They complained that they would have had more respect for him if he had reverse that charge and talked up his Senate record.

[ProSense]

21. I must agree

with Wisteria. These people seem like they're just out to give you a hard time.





Edited they're, not there!

[politicasista]

35. No they are not n/t

[ProSense]

42. I'm not trying to offend, but

this is like spinning wheels. They are so focused on their perceived negatives of Kerry while knowing little else about any other Senators. Yet, they're not interested when you try to present facts about Kerry.

[politicasista]

45. delete dupe n/t

[politicasista]

46. No problem. It's ok.

When I told them about the Bankruptcy Bill and MBNA they were nervous cause he is a senator and they think the Kerry already proved that senators don't make good presidental candidates, actually I thought it was B. Dole that did.

[TayTay]

47. I actually think that is a truism.

That a Senator can't be a good Presidential candidate. That is something that is only true until it isn't true anymore. The old truism when I was a kid was that a Southerner couldn't be elected President. Now that isn't true anymore.

A Senator will be elected fairly soon and then that won't be true anymore.

[politicasista]

48. I think that is a myth too n/t

[MH1]

9. HUH?? "The issue is the Voting Rights Act."

What is their problem with Kerry on the VRA? I know he has made statements about renewing it. He did that whole thing in Boston where Tay got such great pictures.

He also worked with Jesse Jackson Jr. on getting the Rosa Parks statue in Statuary Hall. I am really confused - what is it that he has done or not done with regards to A-A issues that they are having a problem with?

I appreciate you giving us some clues as to where he's not reaching people, but can you give a little more help on the specifics?

And I really can't imagine what they see in Biden.

[politicasista]

10. They complain about Democrats but will vote Democratic

They feel like that wasn't talked about on the stomp the issue about felons not being able to vote. The concession is also another issue. That's where the lack of respect for not taking a stand and fight comes from. I remember reading how people didn't want to hear from Kerry (from urban radio talk show host Joe Madison) cause he brought up disenfranchisment and was seen as an opportunist just trying to "get out votes."

He promised that all votes will be counted, and overpromised, leaving those who stood in long lines hanging out to dry by conceding the next day. In their eyes, if you going to say or do something, take a stand and be consistent, but they don't understand that.

[ProSense]

12. What does the concession thing

have to do with them not voting for Gore or Clinton?

Kerry didn't overpromise anything. And what does this mean: In their eyes, if you going to say or do something, be consistent, but they don't understand that.

In any case, scroll down to the last three myths:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1015710&mesg_id=1015710

[politicasista]

16. After the concession, Kerry put out the video

about counting the votes. I remember him saying something like "Believe me, they will be counted." It just reminds me of the garbage I see here and what I heard during the election.

On edit: It was from the Newsweek Clift article about Gore. Hil is mentioned as a possible 2008 candidate and Kerry's name was thrown into the discussion.

[ProSense]

19. Did you go to the link?

The recount summary is one of the pdfs. The issue is not that the recounts didn't occur, the issue is the machine errors in not registering or switching votes. These are not recount issues.

The links, the legal briefs and reports, provide more explanation. Anyone seriously interested in this should read this information instead of speculating.

[ProSense]

20. There is also

a lot of information at Kerry's Senate site.

08/03/2005

John Kerry on the 40th Anniversary of the Voting Rights Act
http://kerry.senate.gov/v3/cfm/record.cfm?id=243484

06/22/2005
Kerry Statement on the Release of the DNC Voting Rights Institute Ohio Report
http://kerry.senate.gov/v3/cfm/record.cfm?id=239315

[politicasista]

32. Yes, I read them

Thank you for putting them together. They are right on point. I will pass them on. Promise. :yourock:

[MH1]

23. WHICH votes were allegedly not counted??

I'm sorry, I'm getting tired of hearing this canard (from folks all over the blogosphere, I don't mean you tonight).

WHICH votes were supposedly not counted?

[politicasista]

33. The AA votes

It's ok. I am the one that should be sorry. I am tired of hearing it too.

[ProSense]

37. There were no AA votes

that were cast and not counted. Suppression is another issue.

[politicasista]

39. My bad. I got them confused n/t

[MH1]

14. VRA - expires in 2007...but I'm sure he did talk about it.

I wonder if someone can come up with links. I know that he did talk about the Civil Rights Act and other instances where people fought for their rights...it's even in the "For What It's Worth" mp3 someone posts from time to time. (Have you had them listen to that, btw?)

Concession...different issue, isn't it? Or is it? Now here's the question. As for folks who had to wait in long lines...what's the remedy? How can that remedy be brought about? How would conceding or not conceding make any difference? btw, there is a League of Women Voters lawsuit in Ohio that Kerry's lawyers are involved with... I don't know about other states...the LWV Ohio suit addresses the issue of long lines and seeks a long-term remedy, not just some redress of 2004 (for which there is currently no provision in law).

As for all the votes being counted - which ones were not? As I understand there were various legal proceedings to get all the provisionals counted, and they ultimately were.

I hope you will challenge these folks when they make simplistic statements. They will ultimately be disappointed by any candidate they choose, if they don't go beyond the thin veneer painted by the media spin.

[MH1]

25. Felon voting...hmmm. What has Biden done on this? Or anyone else?

In PA it is treated as a state issue. I guess it would be nice to make it a federal law, but I'm not sure that would be constitutional. (seems like it "should" be but that doesn't mean much.)

I guess that's where they see it coming under the VRA. Hmmm.

In any case I think it would be tough for any Democratic presidential candidate to talk loudly about wanting votes from felons.

Don't get me wrong - I actually strongly support restoring felons' voting privileges. I just think it's a little naive to expect any presidential candidate to give it a lot of play during the election.

If you read Kerry's book The New War, very early in it he addresses the issue of the way drug laws are tilted against lower class and minorities, so that many of these people lose a lot of their rights by being tagged as "felons" for relatively minor crimes. This is clearly a root cause of the whole problem (altho you still need to do the restoration of voting privilege thing too).

I really doubt that Biden holds a candle to Kerry on this. If I were in this discussion I would ask them to tell me why they think Biden would be better.

Oh and I'd ask them how they feel about Biden voting for the Bankruptcy bill.

[politicasista]

36. I don't know if he has said anything

I know he was at Coretta Scott King's funeral though.

[jenndar]

40. So was Kerry. There are pictures. He also spoke at

Rosa Parks' funeral.

[wisteria]

11. Biden? Oh, please. This person obviously likes to give you a hard

time. The description she associates with Kerry actually is more suited for Biden. Biden certainly isn't a new face, actually it is old and has been around for ever. He usually talks in circles and never really answers the question presented to him and he ...well, just loves to hear himself talk, mostly about himself.

My advise, present this person with the facts, talk up Senator Kerry, he ACTUALLY DOES RUN CIRCLES AROUND BIDEN,mention that Senator Kerry is a better person than this person gives him credit for being. He is not wishy washy, nor is he a panderer for votes only.Bythe way, what is with the Repub talking points anyway? Defend the good senator and continue to support him. Tell this person that going for anyone else other than Senator Kerry would be settling for less.

[politicasista]

13. I don't think they had access to research and rallies

It won't be easy but they may come around. I already been rejected once over the environmental facts.

[wisteria]

17. If they aren't willing to face facts, then they will be voting against

their own best interests.

[globalvillage]

22. Anyone who rejects Sen Kerry on the environment

is just not listening. It is practically impossible to be stronger on environmental issues than Kerry. That's why the LCV and the Sierra Club endorsed him. And THK would be the first lady of the environment. They met at Earth Day, for crying out loud. Call that destiny, fate, kismet, part of the grand design or what have you. There is no argument against Kerry on the environment.
If you can't convince them he's strong on environmental issues, then there's not much hope, despite what I said earlier about hope.
These friends of yours, are you sure they're serious? Maybe they want an anti-environmental candidate and you mis-heard them.
If they don't have access to the research, do they at least trust that since you do, you know more than them on the candidates and issues? Maybe that'll help. Or maybe you just need to find out what channels they watch for news.
I don't know, sista. Maybe your friends are just stubborn. I can't think of any other reason for someone not to listen to the facts. Whatever it is, good luck. Sounds like a challenge, but I think you're up to it.

[MH1]

43. Clarification - LCV endorsed Kerry in the *primaries*

I think that's important to note - almost any Dem would be better than Bush. In the primaries LCV actually endorsed Kerry and Lieberman...either equally or Kerry was better, I forget the details. Since Lieberman was never going to be taken seriously it didn't matter that they included him ... and environment is one area where Lieberman has always been very good.

[fedupinBushcountry]

24. If they want to be pessimists

let them. But you are stronger then them, and you need to show optimism, If they don't want to do their homework on the subject then they are not really interested and they are not informed enough to even discuss it.

What I am afraid of is that these pessimists are rubbing off on you, and that is not good. You may ask why I think that. The reason is that in your responses you tend to stick up for their beliefs more than your own. Don't let them bring you down that pessimistic road it does not help anyone, show them you are an optimist, and stand up for your beliefs, don't let them get to you.

[karynnj]

26. Maybe you can get a non flattering news account of Biden's

Alito interviewing.

[jenndar]

28. Or a transcript of that travesty n/t

[karynnj]

30. I agree that a transcript is best

I couldn't believe it - it was like a SNL version of Biden - I swear that I never want to hear the following things:
-Biden is Irish Catholic
-He didn't go to Princeton
-His kids didn't go to Princeton

My guess is that Biden on the campaign trail will get old very fast - there's something pattenly phony about him. I hate the photo often posted of him putting his arm around Kerry at some hearing soon after the election because I know it was in the time frame that he was telling his story of the diner waitress who told him that he would have won because he spoke to people better.

[Mass]

29. Can you tell us a little more about the people you are talking to?

Do you know them or did you meet them by Internet?
Are they young or older?

I am asking that because it seems to me that they do not want to be convinced at this time and that (except if you like doing that), you are losing time and energy on this.

From what you are telling here, they are either incredibly misinformed or not very honest about Kerry in particular and the Democrats in general.

Remember also that MOST people are not ready to choose a candidate more than 18 months before the IA primary. It is way too early to talk about that. (never too early, however, to explain what Kerry does).

[politicasista]

31. They're the same age as me or older

I think there get their news from CNN or MSNBC.

[TayTay]

34. 'sista, you keep asking us perception questions

and we keep responding with facts. We are not communicating here, in a way. Politics is a felt thing in many ways. The facts enter into the discussion, but not always as or when we want them too. It is just as important to remember how a lot of people make up their minds, and it isn't always based on a sort of profit and loss statement of how any one candidate or potential does. I understand this. There are a lot of voters who decide who they are going to vote for based on a feeling or a hunch on what that person would do. That is also a part of politics.

John Kerry is, in many ways right now, a work in progress. (The book is not finished, there are chapters to be added.) He is still transitioning away from the last race, though that process is nearly complete. I believe that he has dropped a lot of things that didn't work out for him last time or that weighed him down because they really weren't a good articulation of his positions or thoughts. (I really do think this. It is as important to cut away what you don't want as it is to add what you do want.)

I think this gentleman is now starting over in a sense. I think the recent speech at Faneuil Hall was a commitment to say what he wants to say in the future and to say so from conviction. I could tell you that Kerry has a strong commitment to civil rights and that the commitment extends to voting rights. However, that has to be shown, not told. Again, I believe the good Senator is slowly adding back all the right things he learned the last time. His position on Iraq is clear, unambiguous, heartfelt and identifiable as his. I think that is the direction he is going in on all of the issues. (Again, I really do.)

In a way there is no answer for you yet. We can tell you that he has an extraordinarily good voting record on things that affect the minority community, including commitments to loan programs, small business, environment and so forth. But, it has to be shown. (That's politics for ya. It's always: What have you done for me lately? LOL!) I mentioned that Kerry has put qualified (and exceptional) people from AA and other minority groups in good staff positions. Kerry needs to find a way to show that but not exploit it. (It is a real record of achievement. Not only that, but AA alumni from his office are holding other power positions in the political hierarchy in MA. This is a record that should be shown off. It is something to hold up as an example.)

I have a feeling that there are plans in the works to showcase more of what the good Senator has done in the past and will do in terms of fighting for voting rights and fighting for minority rights in the future. I think he is 'adding on' now. It remains an open question, of course, if this will be good enough to win people over or if that ship has sailed. It remains to be seen. But I do see a concerted and smart effort under way to do just this. Stay tuned.

[politicasista]

38. I think so too. I know there are good things happening

I guess it has to deal with all this frustration with the media and the way the country is now.

[TayTay]

41. And it is still early.

Politics is about so many things and it is about immediacy, what is happening right now, this very instant. It is also about the long term, but that 'right now this very instant' thing is always there. "Senator, what do you think we should do bout global warming and the price of gas?" Ahm, one of those things requires a long term commitment, the other fluctuates wildly in the moment. They are related things, but have very different solutions and are addressed in varying degrees of time. Sigh! The hottest topic in America right now is the price of gas. Does that have staying power?

Right now this very instant will look different in 18 months. The issues will be different, the candidates will be different because some will drop out. Not everyone who thinks they can run will run. Some will have no money, some will take a good look at the race and sensibly decide they really have no shot. Again, there are only about 4 Dems who have a credible shot at running for President. Everyone else is a wanna-bee. Cruel but true.

This is very much a work in progress. (And not just John Kerry. The Presidential sweepstakes is a crucible that will break some people. This is the highest of all high stakes games. Not everyone can play at that level. And it is exceedingly rare to find someone who can play that game twice. We shall see.)

[politicasista]

44. Very early. A lot could happen n/t