Could someone explain to me this thing about Kerry and choice?

[JohnKleeb]

It seems he said something like we need to reach out to pro life voters, I don't know. I do know there are some rust belt democrats who are more moderate on the issue of abortion but are very good on economic issues, people like former Michigan Representive David Bonior, Wisconsin Representive David Obey, Minnesota Representive James Oberstar, and a few others.

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. I don't know if he said that or not

but if he did, I agree.

We need to emphasize that we are NOT pro-abortion, but rather anti-abortion. Our goal is to minimize the number of abortions performed in the US. However, the way to do that is not to outlaw Roe v Wade, but to promote smart policies about women's health and sex ed to every American. Birth control should be afforable and accessible to every woman in America, and every high schooler should learn about safe, responsible, and healthy sex and how to use every form of birth control. Sex should not be stigmatized by adults - kids need to learn that, if they choose to be sexually active, they can do it responsibly and safely. As long as we maintain that we are NOT pro-abortion, but are in favor of reduction of abortion while maintaining its Constitutional legality.

This would win lots of people who are moderate about abortion. It'll never satisfy the fundies, because they are anti-sex and anti-BC (which is completely batshit to me, if they actually care about reducing the number of abortions), but it'll get TONS of moderate Catholics (for example) and religious people who believe in justice and human rights, but who also have a problem with the extreme pro-choice "the fetus is a parasite" NARAL crowd. (Not saying that NARAL espouses that claim, but I've heard many rabid pro-choicers on DU say outrageous things like "the fetus is a parasite on the mother host." You don't have to be a freeper to find that highly disturbing - I did.)

[ginnyinWI]

2. Harry Reid is pro-life, too, and JK supports him n/t

[LittleClarkie]

3. A couple of things:

Here's an article that talks about Kerry and the way he likes to challenge core liberal values.

http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/articles/2004/11/21/opinion/sam%20hall/sam57.txt

Here's something I posted in another thread:

"For me it's a framing issue

No one is PRO-abortion. We need to work on the problem from the other direction -- prevention. Education. Concentrating on abortion is dealing with the issue of unwanted pregnancies far too late in my opinion.

And please remember that being pro-life is indeed a one of the choices. I am pro-life, but I uphold others right to choose for themselves.

Pro-life also means protecting the POST-born. As such, most of us here are pro-life. Anti-war, anti-capital punishment. Anti-poverty.

In addition, this is nothing new for Kerry. He's rattled the liberal cage before. And he did tell us he was pro-life, didn't he? Did we think that was a campaign stance?"

Sorry about the rehash. I didn't want to retype points I've already made.

I sort of like that Kerry would turn around and ask if we are sure we're approaching these problems correctly. All he was saying with Affirmative Action was that perhaps it's not the best way to deal with descrimination, and might end up hurting more than it helps. It doesn't hurt to ask such questions once in a while. And I don't mind the suggestion that perhaps we have to let pro-lifers know that we are pro-life too.

I've actually encountered folks who think pro-choice people are some sort of monsters. We need to fight that perception. I was trying to explain to my boss why partial birth abortions were performed. Before I could get to my explanation she said "For spare parts?" Oh, she acted as if she were half-kidding, but it was almost as if she thought that's what the late-term abortions were for, or had been told that.

Are hard-core pro-life people too far gone to be reached. Sometimes I wonder. They're so sure, so morally indignant. At Kerry HQ during GOTV week, we had a pro-life guy in a van show up two days straight with pictures of dead babies on the side of his vehicle. Each time the gay activists would go get our rainbow Kerry banner and stand in front of the van with it. The dude would then back off, apparently afraid of getting gay cooties.

Yesterday, I was behind an SUV with similar pictures on it. Gee, thanks stranger. And then there is the "human cross" people every year who stand by the side of the road for a mile with these mutilated baby pictures. I live in a very pro-life area, can you tell.

Why do they never think of the post-born? Someone in thier 325th trimester, say. I don't completely disagree, but there is common ground to be found if you can find pro-lifer who isn't also anti-contraceptive.

Eh, was that any help? It's late. I'm probably rambling here. I hope it was.

[GRLMGC]

4. And people got all upset

Because they want the party to consist of people who are in complete agreement with them. Screw everybody else, right?

Nah, Kerry has got the right idea. Not everyone is going to agree w/ you and reaching out to all kinds of different people is the best way to get votes.

I swear, some people here would love to lose votes before "selling out". It's not even selling out. It's recognizing that not everybody thinks like you and you have to accept that. You don't have to give up your beliefs, but you also don't have to be so selfrighteous that you are willing to alienate potential voters.

[LittleClarkie]

5. Not all, but some of those people I call "Dem Freepers"

Just as narrow and disconnected from reality as the far right.

That's the true meaning of moderate to me. Common sense. Open-mindedness. Finding common ground without compromising the what is really important. I don't mean sacrificing our values, but realizing that there is room to build coalitions, to find agreement.

[GRLMGC]

6. Yeah

It's so weird feeling moderate. I don't really consider myself as such but I feel like that here. I just believe in common sense, which is why I like John Kerry and even Bill Clinton.

[JohnKleeb]

8. how you think I feel?

I feel very moderate at times now even though I am one of the more far left people in my classes.

[saracat]

7. I am having problems with this. I feel that abortion is a core right.

I can't be in a party that violates its precepts. My control over my body is not negotiable. I am very disappointed with Kerry that he would "reframe the argument" or welcome "pro lifers" That is like welcoming the KKK to me. I am insulted. One of the things I liked best about Kerry was his unstinsting pro choice stance. Not everyone beleives in civil rights either. Why don't we throw that overboard as well? Or lets "reframe it" so it doesn't sound to the conservative parts of the South as though the blacks are really people!

[WildEyedLiberal]

9. I think you're missing the point

One can be pro-life as well as pro-choice, believe it or not. I am a woman, I consider myself mostly pro-life - I do not morally agree with abortion. However, I recognize the necessity of a choice for some women, and honor that constitutional right.

Please do not equate me or the many other good non-freeper pro-life people with the KKK. That's disingenous and wrong. I personally don't consider abortion to be a "core precept" of the party, since it's only been an issue for 30 years. Again, I don't believe in overturning Roe v Wade, and I don't think it's fair to accuse those of us who want to reach out to those who have a moral problem with abortion as being "conciliatory." No, we just need to emphazise that with smart sex ed policies and accessible birth control, we can reduce the number of abortions in this country, rather than outlawing Roe, which is a classic case of treating the symptom rather than the disease.

[saracat]

10. Thats nice, but The tone of your post is that you are doing prochoicer's

a "favor" by "recognizing the necessity of choice for "some" women" I recognize this as an inherent right of "all" women., not just some. And I don't care what you "morally agree with". That is not any of my business. This has not only been an issue for thirty years. There have always been women giving birth, and being forced to have unwanted children from time immemorial! Women have been ending pregnancies forever! And the KKK example is appropriate. You might also say that the Blacks have only been people since reconstruction! And it is obviously fair to accuse those of you who want to reach out to those who have a moral problem with abortion as conciliatory because you are. You should be able to believe what you want ,but not at the expense of a a established plank of the Democratic Party. The Republicans would never alter any of there basic planks to attract us. If you can't support what a party represents ,you ought not to be in that party. If the Democratic Party sells out my basic right over my own body, I will dump the party. I also will not be able to support a Party that does not support unequivocal support for choice.

[WildEyedLiberal]

11. I really don't see how you arrive at your conclusions

I never said I was doing anyone a favor. I said numerous times that I support the Constitutional right as outlined in Roe v Wade. That makes it pretty clear, doesn't it? I personally disagree with abortion. I won't have one. Am I a freeper because of that? No. I'd be a freeper if I said, "I believe abortion is wrong so I'm going to outlaw it for everyone." There's a big, big, big difference, and you should realize that.

Actually, none of your accusation are fair, because they imply that I do not respect a woman's right to choose, when I fact I stated many times that I do. You are picking an argument over a disagreement that doesn't exist.

I fail to see how reaching out to people who have a moral problem with abortion by telling them that smart sex education is a better way to reduce abortion than outlawing it is "compromising." If it were a compromise, it would involve making abortion illegal in some way, and that's not what anyone is talking about. I never asked you to care about what I morally agree with, but since I never said I wanted to legislate my beliefs into law, I find that to be an unnecessarily hostile statement.

No one is talking about reversing Roe v Wade. You're getting upset over a nonissue.

On edit: you seem to think that when I say "some" women, I am implying legal exclusion. That isn't true. Some women don't believe in abortion, and won't get one, whether it's legal or not. You ought to respect their choice, instead of acting like I am being exclusive by playing games with semantics. Not "all" women are going to have abortions; that doesn't mean that the option isn't there for them should they change their mind.

[New Earth]

12. i feel the same as you, i think

i personally would not have an abortion soley for lack of responsibility (unprotected sex) (I might consider it if i were raped or if i knew the fetus wouldn't survive for some reason).

but as with all 'morals', they are just that, and should not be made 'law' for an entire country that is basically, representative of every religion, background, nationality, moral insight, etc. of the world.

i think there are a lot of people who deeply believe that it is absolutely WRONG, but feel that it's not their position to force another individual under a moral, through law.

[WildEyedLiberal]

13. Exactly

I agree. I believe it's wrong in most cases, but it's also not up to me to make my beliefs law. So I support Roe v Wade - NOT because I support abortion, but because I support the Constitution.

[LittleClarkie]

14. And that's where I, and Kerry, stand as well

Bill still puts it best. "Safe, legal, and rare."

I think that abortions should be legal. But waiting to deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancies until after someone gets pregnant is putting the emphasis in the wrong place. Abortion is not a desirable form of birth control. It is invasive and damaging both physically and mentally. To say that I would like the emphasis put on preventing unwanted pregnancies through contraception and education is not to say that I oppose Roe vs. Wade.

And to say that pro-life also means anti-war and anti-capital punisment is to make the point that many of us in the Dem party are also pro-life, and a good way to take control of the discussion, I reckon.

Emphasizing what we have in common is not compromising. Neither side thinks abortions are cool and there should be more of them. Where I have a problem with certain pro-life people is where they won't even allow contraceptives or education on the subject. Ignorance is the enemy.

Also, we have to emphasize the fact that Blue states have fewer abortions than Red ones, Massachusetts being the lowest. Why? More education? More hope? We're doing SOMETHING right.

Pro-life Democrats within the party are not the enemy. It is just our choice. If we are not allowed that choice then our party is not pro-choice

[angrydemocrat]

19. I Agree With Kerry

This is the way I see it. I am definitely a democrat and not don't like being compared to the KKK for any reason. I myself do not believe in abortion except for a situation where it is a matter of life or death. But that is my beliefs. I also am a strong believer that just because I believe that doesn't give me the right to try to make another woman believe the same. All women have a right to make their own decisions about their body's.

Another words I am as a personal individual pro life, but I always vote pro choice because every woman has a right to make their own choices about their bodies because nobody has to live with those choices but the woman making them.

It is my choice not to have abortions because I personally don't believe in them - to me that is still pro choice because it is mine

It is another womans right to have a abortion because that is her choice - to me that is pro choice because still the choice is hers

And yes I believe in health and sex educations and birth control available for all those who choice to use it.

So my stance in fact is just like Kerry's everyone has rights here not just the far right or the far left. And it needs to be known that democrat protect everyone's rights not just a selective few or a certain group.

[saracat]

21. I personally believe much of what you state. What I do not agree with

is reaching out to the people who believe abortion is morally wrong. They believe abortion is murder and will not condone it under any circumstances. I don't blame them. I wouldn't condone it, if I believed it was murder either. I am concerned about the reignition of this debate. We had already dealt with this in the 70's. I see no reason to reintroduce it. With the current situation in the SCOTUS and the WH , it is dangerous to debate this issue. If a person believes that abortion is murder and morally wrong, they will not see it as a "right" that needs defending. Once that happens within our party, Rove V Wade is jettisoned in favor of those otherwise moderate votes. That happens and I am gone. No other issue is as critical to a womans personhood as free choice and that is embodied in Roe V Wade. And BTW, the limits which are being set also women's rights are also a threat. There should be no limits set on our reproductive health or our health decisions in general. Can you imagine a scenario that said a man could only get medical treatment under certain restrictions?

I was one of Kerry's earliest supporters. I have championed him for over four years. I was a candidate for Delegate. I functioned as a field supervisor. I love this guy. I was really upset by the Newsweek article and the reaction of NARAL. One of the things I respect most about him is his position on choice. I respected all his votes. But if he acts conciliatory to the pro-life faction, ( the abortion is murder crowd) I am hoping he isn't, I will part ways. I have to be a single issue voter on this. My personhood is at stake.

[angrydemocrat]

22. Saracat - Sorry Its Long But Please Read

It isn't morally wrong to reach out to those who believe in abortion. I don't mean that I respect all womens rights I was saying it was morally wrong for me. And Kerry is saying the same thing it is wrong because he is Catholic and they don't believe in abortion. But he has never let his faith influence his decisions in government. He also respects womens rights. The thing we are say is that all people have different religions and beliefs and you have to respect all of those people you cannot take a womans right to to choose away. That is wrong. And I would never say anything against a womans right to choose and Kerry wouldn't either. Check his voting record it speaks for itself.

All Kerry is trying to say here is that just because we have people who support the right to choose doesn't make them animals. and we have people in our party that are both pro life and and the same time pro choice. That means like a woman like me who has been a democrat all her life myself I couldn't or wouldn't have a abortion that is what so many out their call pro life but I a democrat not republican. But I am a pro choice person at the same time because I believe all women have a right to make there own decisions. Just because I believe something doesn't make it right and it should not be forced on others. This is what Kerry is trying to say here what about freedom of choice? Then he uses a democrat like myself as an example just because I don't personally believe should I excluded from the party? NO. Because I also respect the the rights of those who do believe in it.

There are alot of democrats out there that are just like myself we may not believe in abortion personally but we respect the rights of those who do believe in abortion and we don't think they are some kind of animal. Everyone of us are different in some way and we all have to learn to respect others wether they are like us or not. What Kerry is saying the problem is, is these rightwing nuts that are out here screaming we are all baby killers and whatever are brainwashing people. They have gotten alot of people to believe that if you are a person who doesn't believe in abortion personally you are not welcome in this party and that is not true. And I say shame on those people for being so dumb but unfortunately it is true.

I am one that has never felt unwelcome or threatened in anyway by my party. Because I know I belong to a party that believes in equal rights for all and free speech. That is one of the special thing qualities about democrats they don't discriminate against anyone. But I can honestly say what I know about Kerry and like you I have been a supporter of his for many many years now, I can sat this man would never try to overturn Roe v Wade he would fight that all the way. The only thing he is wanting to do is slow down the rate of unwanted pregnancies through education, have birth control available to all women and and teens and them knowing how to use them. If you slow down the rate of unwanted pregnancies you have far less abortions. I see nothing wrong in any of this. And his state is a great example of how his policies work because they are the state with the lowest teen pregnancy rate and the lowest abortion ration of all the states so it does work.

I remember when the question came up in one of his debates about abortion Kerry brought up a point as to why he is against trying to overturning Roe v Wade and that was about what if a girl got raped by he father that is incest would you want to deny that girl the right to choose, and that is also why he doesn't agree with having to always have a parents signature in these situations can you imagine that girl what kind of position. Well Let me say when Kerry was talking about that I know all to well what he was talking about and he is exactly right. So this man understands more than what people give him credit for. He is one of the few politicians in Washington today that see's all sides of the issues and incorporates all he knows about the issue before making a decision. Unfortunately he is alot of times criticized for it and really it is unfair because if we had more like him we would be so much better off.

Kerry is trying to be there for all Americans regardless of what there beliefs and he wants to help all of us without excluding anyone and that is all Kerry is trying to do right now. Now let me point out something I have noticed about our party and I'm sure Kerry has to. We talk all the time about the extreme rightwing nuts those that are trying to take over the country and push their beliefs off on everyone else. What about the extreme leftwing of our party that I hate to say in some respects are trying to do the same? And before you get upset with me over this let me try my best to explain what I mean.

One of the best examples is on the issue we have been discussing already. You have the rightwing nuts screaming calling us murderers and baby killers and saying we are the scum of the earth. First off none of us are any of that I don't care if you have had a abortion or not or if you believe in abortion or not. Nothing pisses me off anymore than to see the nuts carry on the way do it is fuckin crazy. OK then you have the extreme left wing of our party screaming if you don't believe in abortion you are one of the rightwing nuts you are just as bad as they are. Well what I want to know and understand is where do they is where they come up with this reasoning and do they not realize that in fact they are the one's acting like the rightwing and not those that they are accusing.Because they are doing the same exact thing only one group is for abortion the other not.

Let me first start by saying if you noticed I said acting I didn't say they are bad people. Democrats has always been the party of good where the Republicans have always been a party of evil. Not all republicans are evil but most are not looking out for what is in the best interest of the the country and the people in it. They worry more about themselves than they do others that is the difference between dems and repukes. Democrats are not a party that only think of themselves they are a party for all.

Now back to what I saying. Many that are to the far left, don't understand that someone like myself is in no way shape or form trying to take their rights away in fact I respect their rights and it is not my place to tell them what they should or should not believe. But when are they going to stop and realize they owe me the same courtesy and respect. I am not a bad person because I personally don't believe in abortion and I have the right to believe to. Why should they have the right to harass me and say I'm a re puke when in fact I'm not? Why should they have the right to tell me how I should believe or not? That is not what democrats are about. Are we not the party fairness, respect, and free speech. Well that is not what you are seeing with the far left anymore. You get this it's my way or the highway attitude. If thats what you believe you need to join the repukes because you don't stand for the democratic values.

Well I and many others feel we do because first off we don't push our beliefs off on others. We respect the rights of all Americans not just our own and our own beliefs. That is exactly why we are democrats and proud to be and not repukes. I could never be a repuke in my life. Being a party of choice means you except those who believe in certain issues as well as those who don't and that people on both sides of the issue respect the others. You never push your beliefs off on others. So the democrats that believe in abortion should respect democrats that don't and vise versa we should not be fighting among ourselves and trying to divide our party or run others off. Again are we not the party of understanding and free choice and belief of all regardless of what those beliefs are.

This party is slowly falling apart sadly due to our own stupidity. By us not respecting one another's beliefs and rights we will never be a party of the strong and willing as we need to be to fix what evil has destroyed. I hope I explained this to where you and others understand what we are saying. We are against nobody we are for everybody. And sadly some democrats have let the attacks from bring them down. Some have left the party because they feel they no longer belong because they are like me and don't believe in abortion and listen to the attacks of the far left telling them they don't belong. Well I don't blame it all on the far left at all I say shame on them for being so dumb because they do belong as much as the rest of us do.

Now that the party is in the shape it's in Kerry is only trying to do what it takes to fix what has been broken before we all destroy ourselves not even realizing it. All he is trying to do is make everyone realize we are the party of all. We respect the rihgts of all. We can help all. And the education and having birth control available to all is just away to help ease the minds of all in our party about this issue because lowering the need for women to have abortions should be good for all that in no way is saying that there will never be the need to allow abortion. There will always be the need to allow abortions for many reasons and wether the rightwing idiots are willing to except reality I feel the democrats are and democrats know it is wrong to step on the rights of other Americans.

So the next question is will all democrats wake up and start respecting each other again, when will we realize that we don't have to be divided into other party's we can be a party for all once again, I am not sure I hope it is soon and we don't wait till we destroy ourselves and allow evil to completely take over. They are well on there way and if we don't wake up I am scared of what the outcome will be. And until we get everyone to understand that we are destroying ourselves by attacking one another this will continue. Then what are we going to do to bring back those that were shamefully dumb enough to allow words to block reality. This is what Kerry is saying and trying to fix.

[sandnsea]

15. Reproductive Responsibility

How about that to replace pro-choice? It could mean alot of things. A woman has the final responsibility over her reproductive organs. Responsibility for reproduction starts before the pregnancy. Responsibility for reproduction continues after the pregnancy. It is the utmost reponsibility of any society to consider the health implications of reproduction. Finally, men have reproductive responsibilty too.

Does it work? Any complaints or problems with it?

[JohnKleeb]

16. That sounds good

[TayTay]

17. Kerry is pro-choice

He has a 20 year record of being pro-choice. He would not have been elected a Senator from the liberal, pro-choice state of MA 4 times if he was anti-choice.

Kerry has a real self-inspection habit. (Self-help, self-improvment, etc.) I think this comment is part of his reflection on 'what could have gone better' in the campaign. A lot of people found Kerry's explanation of his abortion stand in the last debate murky.(I think, maybe it was the second debate.) He was raised Catholic and doesn't personally like abortion. He doesn't want to impose those views on the legal system and impose those religious views on a secular population. This point of view (extremely common in the Northeast) says that if you oppose abortion, fine, don't have one. There are Democrats who support civil rights, oppose social service cuts, want to help veterans and find a way to get health care for more Americans. Many of these fine folks oppose abortion. We need those people on those other issues. We need to get abortion off the hot seat as a single-issue hot button that can wreck coalitions that could help us achieve the other objectives.

It is entirely possible, given the time he now has for reflection, that he finds his own choice of words inadequate. Saying we have to find a better way to talk about this is not unreasonable. (I talk about it as a liberal Masshole. Works as long as I stay in MA or the Northeast. We need votes in places that are not used to looking at this issue the way I do. I still believe what I believe, but I could explain it more clearly and take other people's point of view under consideration.)

I have no problem with this. It sounds like fairly typical Kerry-speak. Nor do I think, for one nano-second that he has abandoned a lifetime of support for abortion rights. He has walked the walk in the Senate with his voting record for 20 years. I will let him 'talk some talk' cause he has proven himself to me with a consistent voting record.

[sandnsea]

18. As a pro-choice Catholic

His debate explanation made perfect sense. Catholics don't believe in abortion except when a woman is actually dying. He probably should have said exactly that. But to explain that Catholic doctrine can't be the basis of legislation makes perfect sense to me, and an awful lot of other Catholics too. Catholics don't believe in vasectomies either, or condoms. Should we legislate that too? He should have reminded people about some of the extreme positions of the Catholic Church, might have made them think a little harder.

[TayTay]

20. I agree

This is the beginning of a debate within the choir of the Democratic faithful. (After the election appears to be the time when we are NOT all singing off the same hymnal.)

I was raised Catholic as well. Kerry's explanation was something I have heard and recognized and made sense to me. But it didn't make sense to some others and the words were twisted around to make it sound like Kerry was pandering. I don't think he was, but my vote alone wasn't enough. Maybe we should make the position clearer and include some of the emotional reasons that our side supports what it supports. This would help get the message across that we believe in choice, including the choice not to have an abortion.