I told a rapid Deaniac off in public at our state committee

[saracat]

meeting this weekend. She was standing in line ahead of me to register and was proclaiming loudly how we lost because of Kerry and hoe he was a lousy candidate and people couldn't relate to his privileged background ,yada,yada. I just blew up and said you know what? No one could have won. You can't win when they don't count the votes! And Dean comes from an even more privileged background then Kerry. I told her to stuff it. She was giving the Dean supporters a bad name!
The Dean people attempted a coup of our state committee by making people sign "Dean loyalty oaths" before DFA would endorse them as part of a slate for state offices. Most of the candidates they endorsed were the ones I would have voted for anyway, but I thought their tactics were disgusting. They wanted to pressure the delegation into voting for Dean as DNC chair.
What is odd about this as the state delegation is probably going to vote for Dean anyway.I personally am supporting Dean for DNC chair and have written several letters to the DNC in support of him . But these sleazy methods seem Rethuglican and not representative of Dr. Dean.

[Pirate Smile]

1. I agree, and I want him for Chair too. This kind of crap could backfire.

I have seen quite a few of his supporters who seem to act like jerks and do NOT represent him well.

[GRLMGC]

2. Did she say anything? nt

[saracat]

4. She backed off and said I was right about the background issue but she

still said it was Kerry's fault that he lost. I said it was the fault of the DLC and lack of interest in election reform. She said but Kerry listened to them. I know she went on to other parties spewing the hatred wherever she went. They will never forgive Kerry for winning the primary.

[JohnKleeb]

5. Thats part of their problem

Many feel that he illegitimately won the primaries which is why I have a problem with them because I know damn well when they were flying high that some of them were content to do away with the primaries and coronate Dean without even having one primary. Now, you tell me whats more unfair, doing that or the current process, which is admittingly flawed.

[GRLMGC]

6. No they won't

they can't get over the fact that Dean lost the primary. It wasn't rigged, he just lost.

[JohnKleeb]

3. Thats so dumb of them to complain about his background

[LittleClarkie]

7. Loyalty oaths. Gee, that sounds familiar

Lefty freepers, I tell ya.

You sound a bit like me in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1530350&mesg_id=1531162

Talk of punishment and "scaring" our elected officials makes me sick. I don't think they got my point, though.

Good for you anyway. Print out that Newsweek article and have it handy for those who think Kerry was an elitist It still bugs me that our side agreed with theirs on Kerry. Why would anyone vote for him when the person who is supposed to be convincing them doesn't like our candidate either. And they blame Kerry for the loss (assuming there was a loss of course). Thanks a whole hell of a lot, ABB.

[JohnKleeb]

9. All I saw there was ignored then you in the bunch

well there was that other Clarkie. Loyality oaths make me sick too, it sounds, and I admit Ive never read him, but Orwellian? Yes talk of punishment and "scaring", they can be so authoritarian. Remember my sigline, "When we eat our own, we gradually become more extinct."

[XanaDUer]

8. Good for you

Just IMAGINE what Howie Dean would have been put through!

"Dean Loyalty Oaths"? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[JohnKleeb]

10. that reminds me of what the republicans did in the GE

to people who attended Bush rallies. It sounds to me, very authorative. Funny in their quest to "move to the party to the left", they adapt tactics of the right wing. It really is sick, oh and hi Xana nice to see ya.

[XanaDUer]

11. Hi. I was not here for a little while.

Yup. LEft freepers, I like that.
PS-I always feel that, if anyone has to be pushed like that, with oaths, etc (like Bush) then there is something wrong with them.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Ive always called em purists

but left freepers is very apt. Yeah to me loyality oaths and the like are a bushlite thing.

[XanaDUer]

13. I call them bullying thugs

who whine and complain and bitch like toddlers until they get their way.

[JohnKleeb]

14. that certainly is accurate

Its pathetic, they claim they want to move the party to the left which I support but they want to do it in a way that involves us acting like republicans.

[XanaDUer]

15. I can understand them wanting to move the party to the left

the question then becomes, why Dean?

[JohnKleeb]

16. because of his rhetoric

I know, Dean is totally not a leftist, the last guy I would want if I were to move the party to the left. Remeber these people are big on rhetoric and talk, and don't bother looking at congressional records.

[XanaDUer]

18. Yeah, which puts them right about where Bush supporters

are with the listen to what I say and not what I do.

[JohnKleeb]

21. yep

[saracat]

22. Amen, Brother.

Dean was voted fifth most conservative governor in the nation by his fellow governors. And it wasn't just because he was fiscally responsible. He refused to provide more public defenders for Vermont "because most people accused of a crime are guilty anyway!" Really socially liberal wasn't he?
I don't dislike Dean, but liberal he isn't. It makes them crazy when I tell them Dean wasn't liberal enough for me, but it is true. Kerry was the liberal!

[JohnKleeb]

23. Damn

I thought it was just the economic policies but damn. That public defender comment creeps me out and reminds me of what a law and order republican type would say not a guy who is supposed to champion the democratic party's left. Yes, Kerry is the more liberal of Kerry and Dean, and thats why I why prefered Kerry to Dean, because they had a similiar view on the war but Kerry was the way more liberal by far. 5th most conservative, damn, do you got a link, I must read.

[XanaDUer]

25. You remember that , John?

Remember when I and he-who-shall-not-be-named were telling you this?

[JohnKleeb]

26. Its coming back to me

Yeah, I just dont remember the more authoratian aspects of it. So I guess in a way, AP who is a good guy was wrong to suggest Dean was practically a libertarian. I would describe Dean as a more social moderate and definely an economic conservative, christ and they think thats more better than a guy like Kerry, all about rhetoric with those people.

[saracat]

27. Don't have a link but it was from the Governor's Conference.

You could google it.

[JohnKleeb]

28. ok thanks

[XanaDUer]

24. Amen.

I actually considered supporting the guy until I looked at his record.

[JI7]

17. i'm glad you spoke up about the truth

Kerry was lucky to have an aunt to pay for his education but otherwise his family was not wealthy. and his dad certainly was not.

you are right, she is just upset about the primary. and if she had a problem with people with privileged backgrounds then why didn't she support Gephardt, Edwards, Kucinich,Sharption or even Lieberman. in fact the guy she supported in the Primaries grew up the most well off of all who ran. how fucking hypocritical.

[XanaDUer]

19. I am awaiting the massive heads exploding shit fit

that will go down here if Dean goes not get the DNC head.

Which, if I remember clearly, they felt the DNC was garbage, etc.

:eyes:

Now it is the usual threats, "we're leaving the party" (let me hold the door for you), etc.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Lieberman's father was like a shopowner

Yep, youre right, they are upset about the primaries, and just used that as an excuse, and the pathetic thing is they mocked Edwards and Gephardt for bringing up their origins in the primaries, personally I liked that, Edwards and Gephardt were my two picks for VP I wanted the most, yep I Am rare, i like Gephardt, good guy. Kerry's father I would say would be typical middle class, not at all a wealthy guy, provided his family good though.

[elshiva]

29. I apologize on behalf of all Deaniacs, Saracat

I'm sure Dean would cringe at the Bush-like "loyalty oaths." I fully support Howard Dean as well as Kerry and any other real Democrat. I know he is a lot more conservative than some of his lefty freepers want him to be. In interviews on NPR, Dean's said stuff like "I'm more (fiscally) conservative than Bush," and "You can call me a liberal, but it's just not true."

Again, I point out that Dean and Kerry have nothing against each other. Dean worked hard for Kerry and he did not regret it because Dean is true Democrat like Kerry and we go together, ya best blieve.
Pray that these "Deanaics" (they are not real Deaniacs because they do not follow the doctor's love of Democracy, Democrats, and respect towards the common person) do not mess up the DNC race for Dean.

Also, I'm tired of the whole Kerry is rich junk. So hell what? What does that prove? I don't care how rich they are. It's whether that actually are good, respectable people and help out their community, which Kerry did, so did Dean. To me both guys are pretty tied in the hero department.

[saracat]

30. I am supporting Dean for DNC Chair. I personally like him.

I got to meet him a few times and he seemed like a genuinely nice guy. He always remembered my name, which really impressed me. I think he is really interested in people and really cares. I think the same thing about Kerry. But I don't have any illusions about either. They are both human and no one is perfect. I still like them both, but I don't see why some people have to turn these candidates into someone else in order to support them.

I really resent a fictional Dean being used to pummel a fictional version of Kerry. Dean's qualities for chair hold up just fine without his fans placing a phony mantle of liberalism upon his shoulders.I would have supported him for chair anyway.And they truly ruin their case if they have to smear Kerry in order to build up their candidate!

[elshiva]

31. Wow, you got to meet Dean!!!

I agree with you Saracat. Just because one loves Kerry and Dean does not mean that one believes they are perfect. Only God's perfect.

[JohnKleeb]

32. right on the perfection thing

I disagree with most Dems on how Kosovo was handled, and saying that the other night got me well how should I say, attacked and made to feel like a dumbshit. I was talking with wildeyed about free trade and how thats her major disagreement with Kerry, but she still likes him a lot obviously and would show him the effects of free trade on the US.

[elshiva]

33. Yeah, I hate NAFTA and all

those stupid Latin American sweatshops.

[JohnKleeb]

36. The funny thing is when Kerry was vetting

Gephardt who is very anti NAFTA, I am a big fan of Gephardt's btw, and people were like, we dont want a free trade supporter! yet they hated Gephardt.

[saracat]

34. I disagree with Kerry's war vote.

And I don't buy his I was "mislead" story. And I told him so, but I still support, like and admire the guy. But If Graham, Kucinich and Lincoln Chaffee saw the same evidence (and more in Graham's case) as Kerry and didn't see Saddam as a threat, I think Kerry had to have been making a politically motivated decision. How could anyone as bright as Kerry think Bush could be trusted?

[JohnKleeb]

35. that too