Does it seem to anyone else that Kerry is bucking the Clinton machine

[saracat]

in the DNC Chair fight? The Clintons have both been awful lately. Their public comments in support of Bush and their behind the scenes manuevering have been disgusting. I have lost all respect for them. Kerry seems to be standing up to them though.

[GRLMGC]

1. I haven't really noticed

If so, that's awesome. I don't have any disdain for the Clintons but I don't understand this antiDean movement either. He's an excellent choice for DNC chair. I wonder if Kerry is going to endorse anyone.

[whometense]

2. I share your feelings

about the Clintons. His cozying up to the whole * family is sick-making, period.

I always supported him when he was prez, and thought what they did to him was horrific, but he's not my type. A great pol, but too slick by half.

And I just cannot warm up to Hillary. She's very smart and seems to be doing a good job as senator, but for some reason I just don't trust her. I have no idea why. Gut instinct.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

3. Hillary's been turning me off lately and is pandering, in my opinion,

to * and his ilk. I think we're seriously f*cked if she runs for Pres. and gets the nomination.

[WildEyedLiberal]

5. No shit, the lefty freepers wanna bitch about DLC appeasers

And yet Hillary escapes their ire.

WTF?

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. Same feeling

Something about Hillary turns me off.

I obviously liked Clinton as prez, but he was WAY too conservative, and his "third way" helped Dems lose control of Congress and paved the way for Repukes to attack us as appeasers with no real message.

It boggles my mind that the Clintons still have iron control over the Democratic party. It also boggles my mind that the lefty freepers attack all the wrong people as the DLC centrists - they leave Hillary alone for the most part, but excoriate Kerry. What is wrong with this picture?

I agree with you about Bill, too. He's just too smooth and polished. I love John Kerry because he's genuine. I would trust him with my life. I just KNOW he's honest and honorable.

[Pirate Smile]

6. The story about Bill telling JK to support the Fed. Amendment to the US

Constitution banning gay marriage and JK getting off the phone saying "I'm never going to do that, never" illustrates the difference between the two.

[ginnyinWI]

24. yeah

For me, too, it takes more than what a candidate says to convince me. I have to feel it in my gut--feel that they are genuine. I never felt that about Bill Clinton, or Al Gore, or Hillary Clinton either. Even though they say nice words and might be ok--I was never SURE! You know what I mean, WEL.

[Firespirit]

7. I liked them both better when they were in the WH.

I have very mixed feelings now about them both, and I'll try to explain it and remain coherent.

Bill--OK, he's a centrist DLC type, but that is NOT why he won--it's because in 1992 he was so charismatic, and Perot was running (although I understand that some of his votes would have gone to Clinton if he hadn't been on the ticket; he didn't totally take from Bush); and in 1996 the GOP nominated the most boring candidate in the world.

Other than the obvious instances that we all know of, I think that as president he was more or less genuine in that he was not pandering to the middle; he truly was in the middle. I also think that he understood America's problems and did his best to rectify them.

I am not sure that that's the case anymore. It seems that he's become... I don't know, disconnected somehow. I don't know that he cares that much anymore. Take the other Dem ex-president, for instance... Carter cares, and it's obvious. He does things for the betterment of humanity, and I'm afraid that Clinton is doing things for the betterment of Bill Clinton. Please don't flame--this is just my opinion.

Hillary--I have always admired her as a strong independent woman who had ambitions and thumbed her nose at conventionality to achieve them. I do NOT approve of everything she's done as a Senator, but I admire her as a role model for women.

That said, I don't want her to be the next nominee--or even to RUN--and that isn't just for the obvious reason that I have another preference. Even in the (IMO) unlikely event that Kerry decides not to run, I will not vote for her in the primary. I do not think she can win, and even if she did, I don't think she'd be a good president. I'm getting the vibe that she's somewhat of a panderer. I would love to be wrong about this, BTW. Of course there's a limit to how far to the right she'd go, but other than that, I am just not too sure of many of her convictions. Generally I have a feel for whether a Democratic politician is more liberal or more of a centrist, but with her I am really not sure.

[saracat]

8. I completely agree!

[whometense]

11. I get that same

feeling about Bill - that first and foremost he does what is best for Bill.

A lot of people say Kerry is too ambitious, and that everything he does serves that ambition, but Kerry has been thinking of the greater good his whole life.

I believe in my instincts when it comes to judging politicians. I absolutely trust Kerry to do what he believes is right; even if I don't always agree with his choices I don't second-guess him because he's coming from a position of great personal integrity. I do not feel the same way about either Clinton.

[elshiva]

33. I dig Hill, but not Bill

Hillary supersexy, bitchy, extremely pro-choice, and pro-gay. Love her, love her, love her! If only the rumors were true and she was a lesbian...
However, I don't think she should go for prez. For the following reasons:
1. She is a Clinton which strikes up strong Repub hatred and Dem mixed feelings
2.She is a woman, let's face it this is a sexist country
3.People think she's a lesbian

I don't like Bill. He was an OK prez, but a philanderer and dear Hillary deserves alot better. He supported DOMA and other anti-gay crap. He didn't follow through on health care and his welfare reform stunk.

[JI7]

9. i don't know

the things said about the Clintons is something i have heard for a long time. but i like both of them . both did a great job of supporting Kerry. i with the Kerry campaign had used Clinton's speech as a theme for his campaign. the media was saying Hillary would run in 2004 also and it never happened.

as for Kerry, i think he is just doing something he would always do. he voted against the defense of marriage act when Clinton was President and when many Democrats including Paul Wellstone voted for it.

[saracat]

10. Kerry was doing what he would always do. The

point is, He is not cut from the same cloth as the Clinton's. He is a true liberal and doesn't throw his beliefs over the side in order to pander to the right. I used to be a big fan of the Clinton's .Not anymore. Kerry is also meeting with Dean and the Clinton's have launched an offensive against him. That is just dirty on their part. They have been kissing repug ass for a long time.Hillary has been voting right along with the pugs and Bill has been praising Bush and criticizing his own party for "whining".

[TayTay]

12. The Clinton's have a power base

and Kerry has a power base and so do other Dems. What makes everything going forward so interesting is the shifting dynamics in the country right now. The Iraq War changes a lot. The Clintons are not very vocal in opposing *'s abuse of power. Kerry is about to get a whole lot more vocal.

I think the coolest possible thing that could happen would be if Kerry went out and met with the protestors who are going to Washington on March 19th. (2nd anniversary of the start of the war.) That would be incredible, both closing of a historical loop and an admission that the war we have is not what he wanted or what he voted for back in '02. I think I will start sending him letters to that effect. After all, when he protested the war, courageous Senators like Edward M Kennedy came to the mall to meet with him. I would love to see a pic of Kerry with the IVAW guys. Heaven. Damn if this wouldn't get the base excited. I would just love to see the Kerry posts on DU if that happened.

[JohnKleeb]

13. that would be so cool because I am going to that

[TayTay]

14. I think I am going to go too!

I am going to call my brother in Vienna and tell him to expect houseguests for a few days. I am hoping that this will be a huge protest event, and that other cities around the country and the world join in. I know that * doesn't care, but at least some Congress people would see and have to respond. Plus, I want to do it for me. I keep getting all these recruitment letters for my kids.

I got one from the Marines that offered a free backpack if we would respond. I responded and asked them if my son joined up with the Marines and went to Iraq and got killed, would I still get to keep the cool backpack. (Okay, that was vicious, but I couldn't help myself.)

Today I got one from the Navy. "We can accelerate your life ... in 30 minutes." (Like I haven't heard that from a sailor before.) If we just call the Navy recruiters we get a 30 minute phone card activated. The gall of these people. Send the free phone cards to the guys already serving, for chrissakes. Honestly.

Hey Kleeb, you're that age, have you been getting recruitment materials?

[JohnKleeb]

15. Vienna? thats likely the stop I'll get on at

Yeah, Ive been recruited by a while by them too. I am not sure if I am gonna go with the main DU group or not honest if there is one, I may just be meeting with a small group of friends who are DUers tho like I did last week.

[TayTay]

16. I have no idea what I am going to do

besides go. Guess I will try and find others of a like mind and hang out with them.

I don't blame you for wanting to go with your friends. It sounds like the Inaugural was a good time.

[JohnKleeb]

17. It was

Unfortuenly for me though, I have since caught a ocld, and it sucks. Not sure whats gonna happen. Ask to the original thread discussion, I am not a big fan of Clinton, I'd vote and support him but he turns me off often.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. OMG TAYTAY AND KLEEB

I want to go to the protest!

March 19th is the first day of my Spring Break! I could totally do a DC trip! And actually participate in democracy!

Wow... I really want to go now. Any chance of meeting either of you?

[JohnKleeb]

35. Its possible

If you're gonna be meeting up with me, you're gonna be meeting up with some of my friends who around my age, and I am gonna be staying at my friends place overnight and likely getting drunk or high again. I don't know if we'll be meeting up with the main DU group or not, we didn't for the counter-inagural. oh and CHECK YOUR PM FOOL. :).

[whometense]

32. My kids were all

subjected to heavy recruitment from all branches of the military. Phone calls, letters, more phone calls, more letters. It was ridiculous.

[ginnyinWI]

26. wow--a terrific concept--

history coming full circle. He spoke before the Senate Foreign Relations committee--and now someone else could speak before him. Sad that our country hasn't learned its lessons from the Vietnam war. Now Sy Hersch says that insiders tell him they are going to find an excust to bomb Iran, possibly this year.

Yeah you are correct--lol--DU would bow down and worship at Kerry's feet!

[TayTay]

27. Wouldn't that be something?

You know, I half suspect this might happen. (Half not, we'll see.) But that would be great. Hey, what does he have to lose? This would return him to his somewhat dovish roots and endear him to a very vocal base that hates this War and those who perpetrated it. Where's the down?

Oh yeah, the conservative media. Screw them. They hate Kerry and nothing is going to change their opinion. A nice photo op and hearing in front of one of Harry Reid's special Dems oversight committee meetings would be just the thing. Let America know that somebody is listening to the plight of today's Vets. Somebody who knows what it's like to fight in an unpopular war and knows what it's like to be a person of conscience and come back and oppose it. How sweet would that be. I wonder if the 'new and improved' after-the-campaign John Kerry would do it.

[ginnyinWI]

29. We can dream!

Yeah the media dislikes him. I read a theory about why--they all got hooked on Dean early on (well he IS good copy!) and resented Kerry taking over the lead. Kerry, who spoke in senator-speak at first, and who was not easy to interview. Contrasted with Dean, who was. And some of them never got over it. That, plus corporate control. I wish the corporations would decide to take Bush out--he'd never stand a chance then.

[LittleClarkie]

18. I'm going to be mighty sick of that machine by 2007 I suspect

I feel like she's being shoved down my throat at the moment. There's a post out there that says something like "Just accept it. She will be the nominee and will win, and fight Jeb in 2012."

Riiiight.

As I said out there, I predict she will be the Dean of 2007 -- the frontrunner until somebody actually casts a vote.

[JohnKleeb]

19. agreed and it wil be 2008

I am not too big on the Clintons either as I Said.

[LittleClarkie]

21. By 2007, I meant the primary season

rather than the election itself. I expect to be sick of the primary season way, WAY before it actually gets here.

I'm trying to convince folks not to be fighting those battles just yet. Let's get something done before we splinter ourselves again.

[JohnKleeb]

23. right, sorry

[TayTay]

20. It's just so early.

Surprises always happen. Just have to wait and see. If JK is running (and I think it is defintely possible, IMHO)he is certainly concentrating on what he needs to do. Hillary has one big advantage, she has awesome 'money guys.' That usually means a leg up on everyone else. But JK's money guys are also still committed to him. So it could be interesting. But it is so early......

[LittleClarkie]

22. Kerry's last interview made it clear that he thinks it's too early too

for that talk.

But the pundits are already starting up.

I think that the pundits don't understand that she's not exactly popular. All she has is name recognition and that machine of theirs. I suppose Carville and Co will be behind her as well.

Our only hope is that Washington is as sick of the Clintonistas as they are of the Bush junta.

[TayTay]

25. All the Dems have so much to do first

I love Kerry (self-Duh! I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't.) But he has work to do before he can even seriously start to put together a team for a run. He didn't win last time. (Putting fraud issues aside for the moment.) So he would have to put together a coalition that really and truly rocks. This will take a lot of work. He has to once and for all make a very strong statement on the Iraq War, as that might just be the defining issue of the next four years. As a policy wonk, I know what he meant and I agreed with a lot of what he said. But it was not a clear position to sell the electorate. This must be clarified. You must have both a plan and a way to clearly explain it so John Q. Public knows exactly what you mean. It can be done.

There also has to be some major repair work done on the image. Kerry took a beating during that last campaign and a lot of that mud stuck. (Insert appropriate swear words here.) I think Kerry is making strides here. He was obviously a class act at the concession speech and through to the Inaugural. That helps. People like a statesman, not a sore loser. And he is going great guns on putting together strong, clear positions on foreign policy (he's agin it as practiced by Bush.) The domestic agenda positions are also very, very good. I love the 'Kids Come First' Health care bill. (Wicked smaht.) So, we shall see. Lots of road to travel down before we arrive at any real decisions. But it has promise.

Edit: stil cant' spel.

[LittleClarkie]

30. I hope the Smear vets come after him during the interrum

That would give him the opportunity to react to them properly before the next election.

And, oh please, let Corsi try to run against him. That would be most humorous.

Right now, he's also benefiting from a touch of "buyer's remorse" I think, as Bush's approval goes down (or maybe it was always that low, and artificially pumped up.)

I hope he can put together a better team if he decides he's really running. But I agree, he and everyone have lots to do first. That's why I get so frustrated at the "he's running for 2008" every time he make a move to do anything. He can't sneeze without someone saying he's being self-serving. I think that was mud from O'Neil all the way back in 1971 that stuck. Plus the mud that's been aimed at him every time he opposes the RW agenda (BCCI, Iran/Contra) I would have to try and look at old clippings, but I suspect that most of the misconceptions that have stuck to him over the years started with the Repubs. Sad that the Dems help perpetuate it.

I like what I've seen from him so far. Actually, most of the Dems haven't been half bad.

[ginnyinWI]

31. this election was about change vs. no change

To me, it wasn't Kerry as a candidate, it was about how Bushco presented themselves as the ones who would keep us safe (backed up by a reputation that Repubs are tougher than Dems). If Bushco keeps going and shows themselves to be the radical, destabilizing force that they truly are, then many people will reconsider that notion.

They scared people. Bush sold himself as the protector of not only our national security but of traditional moral values. It scares people, especially in the more rural areas who aren't exposed to it, to think about the idea of open homosexuality. And people are bewildered in this world of change and violence and war, and wanted to vote for hanging on to traditional values. The devil you know rather than the devil you don't.

What will convince these people that the Democrats offer the more sane choice? We have to get our moral values message out there, and convince them that voting for Democrats will bring us back to a lot of good that this country used to stand for.

[ginnyinWI]

28. pundits know nothing!

All of that hot air that circulated during the campaign! Just gossip, in my opinion. Info-tainment.

Since Nov. 2 I've stopped watching most of cable news--life is better! I still have plenty to watch because of PBS, Cspan, and the Sunday network news shows. The Sunday network guys are a little more reputable than the cable news guys. We see JK going to Meet the Press when he wants to say something, rather than Hardball! (I know, he was on Tweety's show during the campaign, though)