Non-Catholic with a Catholic question.

[CubsFan1982]

I was having a discussion with one of my best friends who happens to be a evangelical Protestant Christian (he's a flaming liberal on most issues, like me though), and we ended up discussing the differences between Catholics and Protestants. He said that the thing about Catholicism that put him off was the "almost worship of Mary on the same or higher level than Jesus", as he put it, and the praying to saints. I tried to counter, but not very effectively, as I'm admittedly ignorant of Catholic dogma. Would any of you kindly give this non-observant Lutheran an education? :)

[Princess Turandot]

1. Catholics venerate Mary as the mother of Jesus, no less but also no more..

she is not worshipped as another 'god'.

My simple analogy for the role of saints as well as Mary in the Catholic faith is the baseball player who looks to heaven and invokes his deceased father to help him succeed. He doesn't believe that his father is a god, but rather hopes that maybe he can put in a good word, so to speak, with God. Saints are people whom for various reasons are believed to have lived particularly exemplary lives and who are in heaven. Catholics pray to saints asking them to intercede with God, particularly in areas which a specific saint may be associated with. St. Francis of Assisi is the patron saint of animals for example; his love of all creatures comes through clearly in his writings.

The notion of 'idol worshipping' I believe was a major issue during the protestant reformation, where by the 'reformers' believed that
the Church was creating false gods, in violation of the Ten Commandments. I'm not a student of the religious history of that time, so I don't know how valid that point was 500 years ago. I've never encountered a Catholic who views saints or Mary as gods, and I think most, who pay little or no attention to Protestant views of Catholicism, would be quite puzzled by an assertion that they were 'idol worshippers'. (I believe that the very presence of images of the Holy Trinity and saints in churches was also viewed by some reformers as problemmatic. Good thing that the Renaissance largely occurred in Catholic countries.)

Other major issues between Protestant sects & Catholicism are the primacy of the Pope obviously, and also how the sacraments are viewed, especially the sacrament of communion. Catholicism teaches the 'transubstantiation', which means that the consecrated bread and wine becomes the literal body & blood of Jesus. The Protestant sects have a variety of teachings in this regard. In addition, another significant difference between Catholicism and the evangelical type faith are that we believe that faith in Jesus needs to be accompanied by good works. (The famous 'dapper Don' John Gotti for example may well have believed that Jesus was the Son of God, but unless he was awfully convincing in his last days on earth in repenting a lifetime of violence, I doubt the pearly gates were open to him! I am hopeful that the same standard will apply to *!) Additionally, one does not become a Catholic merely by professing a belief in being 'saved' by the Catholic version of Jesus; it generally takes more than a year of study for a Christian but non-Catholic adult to convert to Catholicism.

I hope this helps. I'm sure that other posters here can add greatly to my comments.

[pelagius]

3. The "real presence" in the Eucharist

Like Catholics, the Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ is present in the consecrated Eucharistic elements. Catholics hold a dogma called transubstantiation which states that the bread and wine are completely transformed, becoming a completely new substance.

Lutherans and Anglicans tend toward consubstantiation which holds that the bread and wine retain their original substance _and_ become the Body and Blood of Christ.

The Orthodox decline to speculate on the exact nature of the mystery and simply state that Christ is present in the Eucharist as a matter of faith.

Most Protestants believe the Eucharist is merely a memorial of Christ's passion and no transformation of the elements occur.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. I love your explanation.

Reminds me of that 'old joke' about Mary.

Jesus was standing at the Pearly Gates and along comes some of the worst murderers of all time, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, et al. They all ask to be admitted and Jesus is frankly a little shocked at this request and turns them down.

At day's end, Jesus turns inward toward Heaven and is stunned to see the very same evildoers inside. He approaches one and asks 'how is it that you are in here'. The reply: We went around to the back door and your mother let us in.

I always found that to be such a funny, yet inspiring joke about the fortitude and forgiveness of Mary.

[Maeve]

5. I told one like that in Ireland

Altho it was just an Irish politician and St Peter turning him down...an angel whispered that he should go around to the back, for Herself never excluded an Irish soul yet. And she usually has fresh bread and tea ready.

God loves us as a mother loves her babe in arms...and as the baby loves its mother. When we forget that, when we put the "mean old man god on the throne" in place of the Gracious Presence, Mother Mary is there to say "That may be a god, but it isn't God."

[Princess Turandot]

20. BTW, the Church in real life refused to allow John Gotti ..

to be buried with any sort of Catholic service. (Perhaps the Brooklyn archbishop recalled the baptismal scene from The Godfather!) He was however buried in a Catholic cemetery which has a number of mobsters in residence, including several heads of Mafia 'families'.

[47of74]

25. That's happened with several gangland figures

Including guys like Paul Castellano. I remember reading that the decision about Castellano upset a number of people, including then Governor Mario Cuomo. Here's a excerpt from wikipedia about that;

Controversy dogged Castellano even in death, as the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York refused to grant him the last rites of the church, citing the notorious circumstances surrounding both his life and death, leading many Italian-Americans (including New York State Governor Mario Cuomo) to accuse the predominantly Irish-American archdiocesan hierarchy of applying a prejudicial double standard (citing as an example the case of Brian O'Regan, an allegedly corrupt New York City police officer who, fearing impending arrest, committed suicide in a Long Island motel room the same year as Castellano's death; O'Regan did receive a Mass of Christian Burial despite the fact that a suicide note was found in the room and its authenticity was established beyond any doubt). Castellano was buried in the Moravian Cemetery, a non-sectarian cemetery located in the New Dorp section of Staten Island.

[pelagius]

2. Catholics worship only God

Only God is worthy of worship (Gk. latria). Veneration (Gk. doulia)is for saints. Though the outward forms might look similar, the inward motivations are as different as the Creator and creation. Though one can glimpse God in creation (including the saints), only the Creator is to be worshipped.

Acknowledging that Mary is an object of special veneration by the faithful, some Catholic theologians describe that devotion as hyperdoulia something more intense than doulia, but still not latria.

Additional issues non-Catholics may have about Mary include two more recent dogmas regarding the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. The first states that Mary was conceived and born without the taint of original sin. The second states that Mary was transported bodily into heaven at the end of her time on earth. Only Catholics hold these dogmas; other Christians reject them.


(On edit: added additional material on Marian dogmas.)

[demosincebirth]

21. In our works, is our faith.

[Padraig18]

6. Here's an excellent Catholic website, to use for reference.

http://www.americancatholic.org

:hi:

[ElectroPrincess]

17. I've found this site to be very enjoyable to those new to the faith ...

http://www.catholicexchange.com/

Since I converted to Catholicism in 1996, I'm playing catch up with my husband who attended Catholic School in New Orleans from 1st through 12 grade. Now it seems that my young daughter and I are helping each other enrich our knowledge base.

[Brigid]

24. Thank you for that reference.

It's a great site. :)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

7. Catholic devotion to Mary also depends

on what country or culture you're talking about. For instance, Mexican-American Catholics in our area tend to honor Mary more than white Catholics.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. Yes. Our Lady of Guadalupe,

My grandma has more than a few images of this up in our house. I think she used to have more, but she was sick and a lot of things got thrown out.

In any Mexican household where there are Catholics though, I would be SHOCKED if they didn't have at least one up. All my friends and family have at least one image of Our Lady up. Her feast day is also a huge celebration (December 12). BUT! We don't worship her. We ask that she intercede on our behalf and we hope to be like her in that we put the needs of God before the needs of ourselves.

[Padraig18]

9. We have one in our living room.

So do my in-laws.

:D

[pelagius]

10. We have an Our Lady of Guadalupe statue in...

...a little niche in our hallway. It's an old Southern California house and it would not surprise me in the least if that was what the niche was designed for originally.

[CubsFan1982]

11. OK, I'll ask another dumb/ignorant question.

What's the difference between, say, Our Lady of Guadalupe and Our Lady of Sorrows (just one that I heard of that stuck in my mind)? Is there a difference? I'd really like to be well informed if ever the discussion comes up again.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. "Our Lady of Guadelupe" is the name given to the

apparition of the Virgin Mary to a Mexican peasant, Juan Diego. The image that you see that's known as Our Lady of Guadelupe is the image of her that miraculously appeared on the tilma (cloak) of Juan Diego in 1531. The tilma is in the Basilica in Mexico City. Last year I watched Spanish tv's broadcast of the big Mass there on her feast day, December 12, and the camera showed the tilma many times.

As Our Lady of Guadelupe, Mary is Patroness of the Unborn and Patroness of the Americas (every country has a patron saint -- St. Denis for France, St. George for England, St. Anthony of Padua for Italy, etc.)

"Our Lady of Fatima" is the name given to Mary when she appeared to the three children in Fatima, Portugal in 1917. The children recounted what she said and described her appearance. (The last of the children, Lucia, died recently at age 97.)
Pope John Paul II believes that Mary as Our Lady of Fatima saved his life when he was shot twenty-some years ago.

Mary has other titles related to apparitions but she also has titles like Our Lady of Sorrows and Our Lady of Perpetual Help that aren't related to apparitions but to qualities of her being and her life. She's also called by titles like Star of the Sea (Stella Maris in Latin) just as Jesus is called Prince of Peace and Blessed Redeemer. Catholics have had 2000 years of inventing new ways to praise and honor Mary and to worship Jesus and the other members of the Trinity.

I'm going to come back and post some links -- this was just off the top of my head.

Edit: corrected date of apparition to Juan Diego (now St. Juan Diego, BTW.)

[Matilda]

14. As Our Lady Help of Christians,

she is patron of Australia.

Just thought you'd like to know!

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Thanks! I've never been to Oz but

I did live in the Philippines years ago. The Immaculate Heart of Mary is Patron of the Philippines.

It's nice having you in the group, Matilda. :hi:

[Princess Turandot]

19. There is a Mary Help of Christians church in my neighborhood..

it was always considered the 'Italian' parish, in a neighborhood with several immigrant groups. Their priests are Salesian Brothers.(There was the Polish parish, which we belonged to because my mother was of Polish descent, 3 different Irish parishes - class differences primarily - and a few others,within 15 or so city blocks.)

The Poles revere the apparition of Mary known as Our Lady of Czestochowa (Chen-sto-hov-a) or the Black Madonna. Legend attributes its painting to St. Luke the Evangelist. There are references to what is believed to be the painting from the early 4th C. It was sent to its current home in Poland in the late 14th C. There are cuts in Mary's face which stem from a looter's attempt to destroy the painting in the early 15th C. The painting is usually presented with an ornate cover which only shows the Madonna & Child's face and hands. The image which is painted on wood, is 'black' as a result of age and soot.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. This icon of Mary is known as

Our Lady of Perpetual Help



I never thought of it like this before but it's like if you have a bunch of photos of your own mother that you think of as "Mother with me when I was a baby" "Mother and me at the beach," etc., and probably one or two of those photos are especially meaningful to you. We Catholics have lots of different images of Mary, based on different people's apparitions of Mary or on artists' conceptions of her, and they're all Mary, but we each tend to have favorite images.

My favorites are Our Lady of Perpetual Help and Our Lady of Guadelupe, for a variety of reasons that would differ somewhat from other people's reasons for loving those images. So when I want to call on Mary to pray for me, I may just call her Blessed Mary or Holy Mary or I may use the names Our Lady of Perpetual Help or Our Lady of Guadelupe, in which case, I'll immediately picture that image when I'm talking to her.

From the cross, Jesus told John that Mary was now his mother (and vice versa) and we believe that means Mary is mother of the Church and of all of us. As noted in the jokes about Mary letting people in through Heaven's back door, we think of her as a bit more approachable than any member of the Trinity, like we often go to our mom rather than our dad when we need something. She was, after all, just human like us, so we tend to identify with her.

Whew! I'm glad you asked these questions because it's forced me to figure out how to explain some things. Thanks!

P.S. I have read that Martin Luther continued to be devoted to Mary after breaking from Rome, continued praying the Rosary, etc. This was true in the early Anglican Church, too (and still is in some parishes) so it was the Calvinists and Puritans that threw Mary out of their church.

[CubsFan1982]

12. Thanks everybody!

You've all given me some very useful information. I hate ignorance in any form, so I always want to be prepared in case I have to confront it. Y'all are swell. :)

[DemBones DemBones]

16. By the way, there's a lot of misunderstanding about

the Rosary. For starters, the first part of the prayer known as "Hail Mary" is "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." That part is taken straight from the Bible, from what Gabriel says to Mary when he announces she has been chosen to be the Mother of God, and from what her cousin Elizabeth (pregnant with John the Baptist) says to her when they meet a few months later. The second part of the prayer is simply "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
So the "Hail Mary" pays honor to Mary because she was chosen by God -- and more importantly, because she accepted! -- and asks her to pray for us.

Also, when we're praying a Rosary aloud in a group it may sound very rote and mechanical but we're not supposed to focus on the words we're saying (a collection of "Our Fathers" aka "Lords Prayers", "Hail Marys" and "Glory Be's" aka the Doxology to most Protestants.) We're supposed to meditate on a series of Christian mysteries. It requires a good bit of practice to be able to pray one thing while meditating on another, needless to say, and I admit I find it difficult to meditate when praying with a group. That's why I usually pray the Rosary in private.

If I remember correctly, the Rosary originated because laypeople wanted to be able to pray the Psalms the way priests did but this was when most people couldn't read so priests suggested that the people pray 150 Our Fathers. Later, it changed to 10 Hail Marys for every Our Father and Glory Be, which shortens it up. Catholics are not required to pray the Rosary, by the way.

One more thing I thought of is that Protestants sometimes get upset about Mary being called the Mother of God. But if you believe in the Trinity, Jesus IS God and so by giving birth to Jesus (God), Mary became the Mother of God. She didn't exist before God, of course.

Hope this helps! :hi:

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. If you're still interested ..... to really grasp it, you have to ponder how

Christ was true Man as well as true God; that he learned in the same experiential way that we do, as well as by suffering. Of course, since he did not, himself, inherit the effects of original sin, he would have been a very much more apt pupil than we are. He would have become increasingly aware of his true nature as the Son of God as he grew older.

Nevertheless, because, as the Second Person of the Trinity, Christ had evidently preternaturally, before time began, chosen to become incarnate, taking on our full human nature, at least in its pristine state, it meant he accepted an appropriate limitation on his human knowledge and understanding of earthly matters, so that he was frequently non-plussed by what seemed to him the slow-wittedness of his disciples; and it led to quite a few humorous situations, as did the extent of his miraculous powers when witnessed by them.

The French writer, Sartre, once wrote, "Hell is other people", since we are social creatures. And if you reflect on Christ's offering himself to be whipped and crucified, the most humiliating of deaths, you have to wonder how Mary managed to stay by him at the foot of the cross, and not go insane; even granted that she, too, via Christ's prevenient, redemptive grace, her Immaculate Conception, was spared the effects of Original Sin. It is believed that Joseph was much older than Mary and had died by that time, and I suspect that, one way or another, it would have been too much for his health, physical or mental, so it might have been fortunate in that regard.

The hardest thing of all for Jesus, himself, Mary and the Apostles, must have been the knowledge that his executors and persecutors, failing to understand that, throughout the three long hours of his crucifixion, they had no power over him that he had not, himself, given to them, were gloating and taunting him mercilessly. Is there any other form of execution that could have so invited their gloating? So forcefully expressed the total power of Christ's executioners over him, who could not so much as move a foot or hand.

Since Mary was physically at his side, as well as closer to him emotionally than anyone else, she must have experienced much of the shame and pain, both on her own behalf and as his mother. Christ, Mary and the disciples must have represented a kind of cone of the most intense and humiliating suffering. He, who taught that even thinking lustfully of a women was adulterous, would have hung naked on the cross, and who would have been more aware that he was innocent as a four year-old child than his mother. Their culture with regard to nakedness would have been akin to that of the Iraqi victims of Abu Ghraib and the other torture sites.

On the subject of our being social creatures, it is a matter of common observation that it, if anything, it holds even more true in respect of women than of men. So we can expect Mary to have had the same urge for acceptance and respect, if not respectability - as most other women, tend to; and all the more keenly living in a rural community. So, the latin words, "Stabat mater...", (the mother was standing) have a particulary profound significance for Catholics, who, traditionally, like the Jews, themselves, have been very family-oriented. The Incarnation is pivotal to our humanity, of our membership of a society, part of the family of mankind. And, of course, Mary played the key role in the birth and raising of Christ in his humanity.

Ultimately, if a person so wishes, they can put forward reasons for not attaching much significance to Mary's role in the Gospels, but if you can see it, it's at least as a result to by supernatural prompting. "Mother Mary speaks to me..., etc.

[hedgehog]

23. Here's how I explain our relationship to Mary and other saints:

1. Would you ask a friend to pray for you in a time of need?

2. Do you believe that good people are with God in Heaven?

3. If your friend were in Heaven, wouldn't you still want your friend's prayers?

4. When we pray to Mary or the other saints, we are asking fellow members of the "communion of saints" to remember us in their prayers. It doesn't matter whether they are here living on Earth or have gone ahead.

5. Meditation on the life of someone who has faced problems similar to your can be comforting, hence patron saints.

[Gman]

26. We know from the story of the Wedding at Cana that

the wedding party had run out of wine and the party was going to fizzle out. Mary herself asked Jesus to do something. Jesus was reluctant, but he did what his mother asked and made more wine from jars of water.

The point here is you can ask Mary for something, she will go to Jesus and ask him for you. No one can turn down their own mother's reasonable request.