What can we do to get our progressive message out?

[Cuban_Liberal]

As you all know, our Church has one of the most progressive agendas of any mainstream denomination, especially in the economic, social justice, criminal justice and political/legal equality areas; that said, I've made a concentrated effort over time to introduce these progressive positions into various threads where they were appropriate. While many posters have been surprised to discover the Church's position on Issue X and have been willing to discuss it and learn more about it, others predictably play the 'pelvic issues' card, and the ongoing debate relevant to the issue being discussed is soon lost in a depressing sea of flame.

Does anyone here have any ideas for strategies on how to introduce the Church's positions on a whole host of progressive issues and to keep the debate 'above the belt' (pardon the pun :P ), so to speak? There is much ignorance and urban legend-type propoganda about our Church out there, and I feel that we Catholics have a duty to dispel that.

Your thoughts?

:)

[pelagius]

1. This is a very important issue...

...and could play a key role in reconciling the Democratic Party to "people of faith."

The first thing I do is assume ignorance about Catholicism in particular and Christianity in general. The current generation of young people are likely to have had no religious education whatsoever. There are avid haters and they quickly show their true colors, but -- for my own sanity's sake -- I assume ignorance rather than malice.

With that in mind, I correct misstatements about Catholicism by providing correct facts. If possible, I provide a web link to a policy statement. The US Conference of Catholic Bishops website (www.usccb.org) is an excellent place to find statements on social policy that would make most liberals' eyes gleam.

I'm not above doing a little "evangelism", either. If there is a discussion on lifting the embargo against Cuba, for example, I'll put in a side comment that the US bishops have issued a call for this very thing and provide a link. These usually pass uncommented, but I know they're being read.

I don't try to defend the Inquisition or all the mean things the Church did to Galileo or whomever. Most of them happened a long time ago and the Church has since repented of these sins. When the historical excesses and abuses of power are trotted out as "evidence" against contemporary Catholicism, I usually respond, "The Church acted as a temporal power back then and behaved as badly as any other European monarchy. Thank God (heeheehee!) the Founders had the wisdom to separate Church and State in this country!"

When abortion (or contraception) comes up and the Catholic Church is railed against, I usually say, "You can't really understand what the Church teaches about abortion unless you consider in the context of their general 'pro-life' stance which condemns war and capital punishment, too." I also point out that there are many Catholic politicians who support a right to choose -- John Kerry being one -- whatever their religious views on the topic might be.

The important thing is, I've found, not to be overly defensive or easily offended. Most people don't understand the Pope's role in the Catholic mind as the Vicar of Christ. He's just some media image to goof on. Most people don't understand even that Catholics are not identical to Protestant fundamentalism. They don't understand that the Church accepts evolution and is against Biblical literalism.

The Church has a great progressive stance on most issues that really should matter to the broad range of liberals. No liberal Catholic need feel ashamed of the Church's stance on economic justice or war and peace, for example. The US bishops make statements that no Democratic politician would dare to make about the war in Iraq or the Bush budget.

I think clearly, simply, and factually presenting this information over and over again in as many contexts as possible will win at least grudging respect from the open-minded and make the haters seem like the shrill fools they are.

[etherealtruth]

2. I agree heartily about not being "over defensive" ...

Though reasonably new here I try to point out the church's very strong positions on social, economic and environmental justice and it's strong belief in the "just war" concept.

I definitely think we will make no progress being overly sensitive... one of my favorite comic sketches was an old (think late 70's) SNL series of sketches where Don Novello played a character named Father Guido Sarducci----it was hysterical, and yes, many Catholics were upset.

As an aside: growing up in an area where there is a "Catholic church on every corner" (exaggeration, of course), I was never exposed to antiCatholic sentiment----It was not until I spent a couple of years in Fredericksburg VA, that I clearly understood this bias was "alive and well" and living in the USA.

[etherealtruth]

5. OMG, I reread my post...

... I did NOT mean to imply that I think Fredericksburg or VA are bastions of "Hate". There were very few catholics when I lived there in the 90's, and there were some unusual comments made due to the lack of exposure to Catholics.

[Princess Turandot]

3. To start,I think we need to change the group charter as well as its name..

The group charter currently reflects IMO the religious aspect of Catholicism almost exclusively. It talks abt discussion of liturgy & prayer, with no mention of discussions of progressive Catholic politics or social policy at all.This is it:

"The DU DU Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group is for those who wish to hold respectful discussions of Catholic and/or Orthodox Christian beliefs, share faith experiences, post prayer requests, discuss Catholic/Orthodox liturgies, traditions, saints, etc., talk about Catholic education or organizations (Knights of Columbus, Pax Christi, Legion of Mary, the Catholic Worker movement, etc.), or in any way positively explore issues having to do with the Roman Catholic Church or any rite of the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

Participants need not be practicing members of one of the Catholic or Orthodox rites but should be respectful of the beliefs and structures of the rites, especially in advocating any changes, such as allowing women to serve as priests.

This group is intended to be a venue for those who desire to discuss stated topics and is not intended as a forum to argue against Catholic/Orthodox belief or the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, members, or clergy."

DU is at its nature a progressive political forum, attracting people with an interest in politics, who might hopefully also be interested in discussing how their Catholic faith intersects with American policy.

I am not dismissing the religious discussions. It's nice to read threads abt saints & churches & see an occasional prayer or religious painting. But this should not exclusively be a liturgically oriented group if you want to attract more people.

Additionally, as Catholics, we have every right to discuss changes which we would hope to see in the church. The paragraph on this topic in the charter seems to me to discourage such discussions.

Also, I have previously expressed the opinion that the inclusion of the word 'Orthodox'in the title may be off-putting to people. It was intended I gather to reach out to Russian & other Orthodox participants, which seems to have attracted none. While that may be laudable, the word 'orthodox' is too loaded with unappealing meaning.(I refer to 'orthodox' as a synonym for 'fundamentalist', not as the Eastern Orthodox church.) I think that if a new person is interested in discussing their political perspective as a progressive Catholic, seeing the group's title and reading the charter, will send them away.

You can read the original thread I started here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x621

As you can see, DemBones2 who wrote the group charter, basically told me to go play with the Episcopalians if I didn't like her charter. The position that 'people know we are not conservative Catholics because we are on DU' doesn't hold water with me, when people are starting threads asking if 'your church has a pro-life group?' or ones extoling the right of pharmacists to not fill presciptions for birth control of any sort. Those types of threads just support the stereotypes held by other DU'ers of Catholics.

I will even go so far as to suggest that the abortion question not be discussed here at all, just as the Jewish group has sworn off their most contentious issue, the Israeli-Palestine debate. There are people here who believe abortion should be legal and there are people who want it banned. There is no constructive discussion to be had on this topic right now.

Just my 2 cents. I have a hard time believing that the low number of posters here are because there are so few Catholics at DU. This group needs a broader outreach.

[etherealtruth]

4. Catholics at best are often misunderstood on the DU...

... at worst we are demonized. It would be nice to attract more Catholic DU'ers just to let others know we are very reflective of the USA (Liberal and Conservative proportionally). Though not a devout Catholic I would be lying if I said that Catholicism did not strongly influence who I am and how I react to the world around me, for this I am very grateful to the church.

I strongly agree that we should ban all discussion of abortion (as you mentioned the Jewish group bans their most contentious issues)and I'm beginning to believe the issues surrounding Terri Schiavo might be better discussed in the main area. In the greater scheme of things church teaching can be fluid and as understanding by the populous and the church increases (as with many other things over the centuries), the church's position is likely to change.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. Hmmmm....

I'm not sure we really need to change the Mission Statement, frankly; after all, we are Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and the group is a place to discuss issues pertinent to the Church(es). If we broaden and water down that purpose, we lose the unique flavor that this group has, IMO. There is another group available for those who wish to find a more generic brand of progressive Christianity, and I would not favor becoming a 'me, too' group with the word 'Catholic' attached.

Abortion and birth-control happen to be two issues of importance to Catholic and Orthodox Christians, and we hold varying opinions about them; I would venture to say that our opinions span the continuum of opinion on these subjects, and where better to have a respectful discussion of the topics than here? As for threads "...extoling the right of pharmacists to not fill presciptions for birth control of any sort....", I've never seen a thread like that, here or elsewhere at DU, so I'm not quite sure where that comes into play.

If our fellow progressives are afraid to enter into this group and discuss Church-related issues in an environment where they cannot engage in the sort of conduct and use the rhetorical devices available to them elsewhere at DU, I would question the sincerity of their desire to have a respectful discussion of those issues, frankly.

My $.02.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. I agree completely with your two cents, Tony.

Thank you.

[Princess Turandot]

9. well..

I think we need to attract more DU Catholics, which is not happening now.

To achieve that, I think the mission statement should include something about frank discussion of Church policies, not something that pretty much warns one away from that topic. It should also include something about the discussion of Catholic views on social policies influenced by politics which does not appear in the mission statement at all. Whether or not those topics can be discussed elsewhere on DU, the point I thought was to make this a place where those topics could be discussed & debated by adults in civil discourse, without insults & flames from the anti-religious but as importantly, also not in lock step with the Vatican. There are lots of websites other than DU where people can extol the 'right-to-life' values and parrot church teachings on every aspect of life. I think that liberal Catholics, American 'menu' Catholics and hell, even 'lapsed' Catholics who still have a interest in the Church should be welcome here. And that 'welcome' should not consist solely of dogmatic response to civil questions or comments.

I'm not quite sure why you are worried abt becoming a 'me-too' forum about progressive religious values, since your original post was about spreading the word abt Catholic liberal social values. We are not in danger of becoming an identical group: Catholics have a very different self-identity than Protestants.

It seems to me that one way to help spread the word is to get more DU Catholics interested in posting here, beyond the dozen or so
who at most do right now. Right now, the group sends off vibes which are not particularly progressive. The reason that I suggested staying away from the topic of abortion at least is that there doesn't seem to be any dialogue on that topic here at all, but rather only statements reiterating the Church's position that abortion is murder. As long as that sits glaringly front & center here, you will not attract pro-choice DU Catholics whom I suspect are the majority of posters on DU who have any Catholic identity.

And I respectfully remain convinced that the word 'Orthodox' is a minefield which is not at all balanced by warm feelings of inclusivity towards the Eastern Orthodox, not that it's managing to attract any as far as I can tell. It's secular meaning is too loaded on a political board and more people are familiar with the secular meaning.

This group is not growing, which I would hope would be our goal. So either there are virtually no Catholics on DU or the status quo speaks for itself.

[Cuban_Liberal]

11. The Mission Statement is broadly inclusive.

"The DU DU Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group is for those who wish to hold respectful discussions of Catholic and/or Orthodox Christian beliefs, share faith experiences, post prayer requests, discuss Catholic/Orthodox liturgies, traditions, saints, etc., talk about Catholic education or organizations (Knights of Columbus, Pax Christi, Legion of Mary, the Catholic Worker movement, etc.), or in any way positively explore issues having to do with the Roman Catholic Church or any rite of the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

Participants need not be practicing members of one of the Catholic or Orthodox rites but should be respectful of the beliefs and structures of the rites, especially in advocating any changes, such as allowing women to serve as priests.

This group is intended to be a venue for those who desire to discuss stated topics and is not intended as a forum to argue against Catholic/Orthodox belief or the Catholic/Orthodox Churches, members, or clergy."

The mission statement clearly welcomes discussions about our beliefs, traditions, liturgies, practices and other Church-related issues, and I'm not at all convinced that tinkering with the verbiage will result in a host of new group members. As I stated in my earlier post, I suspect that even those of us here already likely hold a broad range of opinions on many pertinent issues, and I don't believe that 'conservative' is a proper characterization of this group at all. I offer my own view on contraception as an example: I support fact-based sex and STD/HIV education, and also support contraceptive education and availability; I'm quite sure that others here do not, and I respect their POV even if I do not agree with it. The issue has simply not come up for discussion; in no way, however, would the Mission Statement preclude such a discussion, should someone want to start one.
:shrug:


As for the size of the group, there are many factors involved: interest, donor status, amount of time one is able to be at DU, etc.; further, while there may actually be many Catholics at DU, sheer number is no indication of how many come here to discuss the Church. Like most Baptists, Jews, Muslims, etc., who come here, their greatest (if not sole) interest in DU is likely discussing politics, and not religion. Finally, I can see this forum becoming unwieldy and unruly if there is not some threshold established for what is and is not acceptable subject matter; it makes little sense to me to open up a Catholic and Orthodox Christian group to active participation by those whose major purpose is quite likely to be a wholesale change to the very nature, structure and policies of the Churches themselves.

:hi:

[DemBones DemBones]

7. We discussed this in January and you said you wouldn't bring it up again.

Moreover your statement that "DemBones2 ,who wrote the group charter, basically told me to go play with the Episcopalians if I didn't like her charter" is a COMPLETE DISTORTION of what was actually said.

I will refresh your memory, from your thread which is currently on p. 4.

In my reply to your question about why the group has the name it does, part of what I wrote was:

"Some immediately asked me why I left out Episcopalians, who are Anglo-Catholics. <snip> There are doctrinal differences, though, about theological issues like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, differences about the priesthood (they allow priests to marry, as do the Eastern rites, but they also allow women to become priests) and differences about social teachings (they endorse contraception, abortion, same sex marriage.) BUT, having said all that, I know that some Episcopalians consider themselves Anglo-Catholics. Those that do are more than welcome to join us. "

In your reply, you then wrote:

"Thank you for your explanation of your reasoning.
It doesn't change my view but perhaps gives me a better idea
of what this group was intended to represent. Based on your response, I personally probably have more in common with Episcopalians from a social teaching than I do with you.
I won't bring it up again, and hope the group is able to attach more members. "


In my reply to you, I wrote:

You also wrote: "Based on your response, I personally probably have more in common with Episcopalians from a social teaching than I do with you." I am puzzled about your comment because in my earlier reply I wrote this in discussing the Episcopal and Catholic Churches:

"There are doctrinal differences, though, about theological issues like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, differences about the priesthood (they allow priests to marry, as do the Eastern rites, but they also allow women to become priests) and differences about social teachings (they endorse contraception, abortion, same sex marriage.)"

Notice that I didn't say what *my* position was on any of the social matters, matters concerning the priesthood, or theological issues. So isn't it really that you "have more in common with the Episcopal Church from a social teaching than with the Catholic Church"?


I NEVER said "you should go play with the Episcopalians if you didn't like my charter."

I showed that YOU said you had more in common with Episcopalians than with Catholics on social teachings, though you tried to make it a personal difference between your beliefs and mine.

I think that you have a problem with me, which is unfortunate but will not cause me to change my Catholic beliefs in order to make you happy. Your attitude of being put upon is unjustified as I have done nothing to injure you.

I worked hard to set up this group for my fellow Catholics, having every action I took vetted by this who had signed on to participate in the group (not all of them Roman Catholic, by the way), and you have come along late to the party and full of criticism. You seem obsessed with increasing the number of posts and posters in this group but I see no benefit in having more posters if their motivation is to criticize the Catholic Church. Our guidelines as they are allow for discussion of all sorts of issues but they also require respect for Catholic teachings and the hierarchy. I believe that most of us understand why they are written that way.

[Princess Turandot]

10. You know what, DB2?

I'm a member of DU and I identify with being a Catholic. I am not expressing my views in a rude or insulting manner. The fact that I was 'late to the party' is irrelevant. (In truth, that had more to do with the fact that I was not a paid DU member when the groups were being set up than anything else.) You have no right to tell me that I cannot express my views in a polite manner or that they are not welcome here. You are not the owner of this group, whether or you crafted the original manisfesto or not.

I wrote my response to what I thought was a question about how to make people aware of the liberal progressive views of Catholicism.On a reoccuring basis, the Church is mocked by posters on DU; frequent complaints about that appear here. A lot of that is due to predispositions on the part of posters which likely have little to do with Catholicism but some of it also results from the Church's teachings or postures. I think this should be a group for Catholics and other interested parties who post on a political board. I expect people to be civil about their comments and respectful to each other. I don't think that means that opinions contrary to Church teachings cannot be discussed here in a civil way. The best way to convince people that Catholicism is not the over-arching evil on earth is for them to interract with progressive Catholics and be able to discuss and yes, maybe even question the Church's teaching in a non-combative but also non-defensive environment.

As you noted above, I brought up the inclusion of Episcopalians months ago because of their broad comparable positions to Catholicism on social justice & other values, as well as many similarities in religious beliefs. I merely asked a question. Your response to me quoted above, was that you excluded them on DOCTRINAL bases. You also specifically mentioned that you felt that they did not belong because of their differences on abortion and birth control, two areas in which you have conservative points of view.
Frankly, your response surprised me, since I thought the purpose of this group was a discussion of Catholicism, not the practice of a specific form of Catholicism via a webpage. So it seemed clear that this group was originally configured for Conservative Catholics and that Catholics who disagree with that perspective were not welcome here. That was why I said that I would not bring it up again because I thought I was being told that it was not open for discussion. Then someone asked a question that I wanted to respond to, and my response naturally included my thoughts expressed months ago.

I still think this is a political website in nature not a liturgical one. I think we should be talking about Church teaching if we choose to, not just parroting what they are. And yes, I think it would be better if this group attracted many more Catholics, including the pro-choice, pro-birth control ones like me who likely represent most DU Catholics, even if they disagree with some of the Church teachings. We can promote the goodness in the Church by dialogue.
Rigidity promotes nothing.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. I don't believe you read my OP on

Does your church have a pro-life group? prior to posting that in your post. If you had read it, you would have understood that I am definitely not in the conservative category.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. I agree with you, Tony

that this is a huge issue. Social justice is actually one of the main reasons I am still a Catholic. It seems to me that the fundies have co-opted the right to exclusivity in terms of church, but they are not practicing what they are preaching.

I know for me, I have started almost evangelizing my faith. I have been more out and proud about my liberal/progressive bend and I have looked more than one fundie in the face and stated "Jesus was a Liberal". They don't seem to know how to respond to that.

I don't know, if there is any other way to do it than in a grass roots kind of way.

[Cuban_Liberal]

14. On Monday of Holy Week, ...

... Jesus returned to Jerusalem, and taught and preached among the Gentiles gathered near the Temple. Let us reflect upon that, and try to do the equivalent at DU, what say?

:)

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. I'm trying; does anyone want to weigh in?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3329859&mesg_id=3329859

:hi: