At first I really loved this group now It makes me sad.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

The level of inflexibility is offputting at best. Enjoy whatever this place has become.

- May the love of the Blessed Mother and the Peace of Our Lord be with you always.

[happynewyear]

1. this inflexibility you speak of

is why the Catholic Church is going up in flames.

And I agree with with you btw.

DTC

:kick:

[DemBones DemBones]

5. See my message to OP. nt

[Princess Turandot]

2. Amen, brother..

and thanks for the prayers for my Yuri. He is not yet out of the woods, but is finally home and doing better.

And Thanks to St. Francis & St. Clare of Assisi for hearing my and others' prayers for Yuri.

[DemBones DemBones]

7. I will gladly pray for your brother Yuri now that I am aware he needs

prayer.

I am not surprised to see you say "Amen, brother" to Chavez's complaints.

You have stated more than once that you want the name of the group and the rules of the group changed from the ones I wrote, which were vetted by every person who had signed up for out proposed group, including people who were non-donors at the time and therefore, by DU rules, had no "right" to participate in a group.
I'm such a "conservative" that I violated DU rules by allowing those posters to have a vote. I also suggested to people that if finances were tight, they could ask to be a sponsored member and thus be eligible to participate in any DU group and have access to other membership benefits.

You apparently have no interest in getting to know me further so why not simply put me on Ignore?

[Princess Turandot]

18. I have no need to put you on ignore..

I read your posts on the main boards quite regularly.

I do remain mystified as to why it is offensive of me to ask questions about the Group's mission statement & name, even if I did not participate in its original writing. Am I in some sort of second tier because I was not in the original group???? That seems to be the gist of the response that I keep getting.

I raised my question about the group's name several months ago in a civil way because I noticed that we were not attracting very many members. I like diversity. I stated an opinion that the word 'Orthodox' had more than one meaning and that I was concerned that it might cause other Catholic DUers from checking out the group. The response I got in return was that if other people did not check out the group that was their problem, not the group's. Then I got the comment - 3 times now, I think - that I have no right to ask about amending the group's mission statement because I was not here when it was first written. I did not realize that the mission statement was as inviolate as the US Constitution.

The second time I brought up the issue of the name & the mission statement was in a thread about how to show other DUers that Catholics were more progressive than they believed them to be. I suggested that perhaps we needed a few more progressive Catholics in the group to help with that dialogue. I also brought up the topic of adult Catholics discussing their thoughts about the Church's social teaching in a civilized way. As someone who has lived as a Catholic for decades, I personally think that could engender interesting and useful dialogues. That seems to be a direct violation of the mission statement and frankly, I disagree with that. I then received a response chastising me from bringing up the topic again, because I had said in my own thread months ago that I did not see the point of further discussion at that time. And of course, I was again chastized for daring to mention the charter when I wasn't an original group member.

Thank you for your prayers for my Yuri. He is for the record my brother, who is in good health, but rather my favorite cat.

[Jamastiene]

22. I'm curious about St. Francis of Assisi and the others

I'm not Catholic, but I've always been curious. Maybe this isn't the place to ask this question as things seem to be a bit turbulent in here right now, but I've always wondered about the saints and prayers in the Catholic faith.

[ElectroPrincess]

3. Hey, please hang in there ...

Don't you know? "God hates a quitter!" <tease!>

Many folks can do good and not toe the right wing Vatican policy line. And yes, we're still good Catholics.

Please at least explain your frustrations before you leave?

[DemBones DemBones]

6. Who are you accusing of toeing the right wing Vatican policy line?

If it's me, be a grown-up and talk to me directly. If it's someone else, talk to them directly.

Or do you not know how to disagree with someone and express your disagreement openly without turning it into a personal attack?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. Why are you so upset about this?

You are taking this all as a personal attack.

[XanaDUer]

17. Let me just step in here for a second and add my 0.02.

I think DB DB means that she started this group (and she did start it and write up the rules) for people who have a more orthodox view of Roman Catholicism. In other words, there are lots and lots of places on DU where Catholic orthodoxy is slammed in the most rude and ignorant manner, and this group was put together as a shelter for DUers who are not really more "conservative" exactly, just more respectful in following the Church's rules, so to speak.

I, a former-Catholic-turned atheist, feel very good about coming to this group, and I am glad it exists. I was welcomed with open arms, and if I can be welcomed, then surely DB DB is very "liberal" in welcoming others, as long as they are respectful of the Church's orthodoxy.

So, if the group has let you down, it probably is a good idea to take some time off from it. Is there a more-liberal Catholic or Christian group here on DU? If not, perhaps one can be started?

Peace.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. wow. ok. That's not the vibe I got when I read the mission statement

I think I will be leaving as this place was misrepresented to me.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Who misrepresented it to you?

I urge you, again, please read the guidelines carefully. Some posters are misunderstanding them.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. I've read them 7 times now. No where do I see what the above poster has

referred to. I see nothing about "conservative" Catholics.

[XanaDUer]

27. Not conservative. Orthodox.

Those two terms are not necessarily interchangeable.

You need to do what you feel is best, however.

Peace.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. I thought Orthodox meant Orthodox like Greek Orthodox or

Russian Orthodox. "I think DB DB means that she started this group (and she did start it and write up the rules) for people who have a more orthodox view of Roman Catholicism."
Maybe conservative is not the word but "orthodox view of Roman Catholicism" and being an Orthodox Catholic are two VERY different things.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Orthodoxy = conformation to established dogma and practice

contrast w/"heterodox".

Orthodox Christians are called such because, following the Great Schism, they saw their church as the "true" church, and Rome as followers of heterodoxy.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. Yes - I know that, that's what I was saying.

What is your point?

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. My point is...

that "orthodox" doesn't necessarily mean "Orthodox"; what the poster in #27 meant was "conforming to the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church".

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. THAT post was in reference to a post further up stating that

DemBones "started this group for people who have a more orthodox view of Roman Catholicism.". So what are you talking about? I know the difference between Orthodox and orthodox - that was what I was saying. You are simply saying EXACTLY what I said. WTF?

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Sorry...I was confused, looks like.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. Peace my friend, peace.

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. And peace to you.

I'm agnostic, but I guess I'm a CATHOLIC agnostic, if you can dig that (like they say, you never really leave the Church).

I'm feeling very saddened today, because while I've disagreed with the Pope on several issues, I have profound respect for his basic humanity and decency.

[etherealtruth]

39. I have struggled to find an appropriate description ...

of myself related to religion and theology ---- Your self description as "Catholic agnostic" is perfect... as is your explanation of never completely leaving church.

[Maeve]

34. For what it's worth...when the word is capitalized

It usually means the Eastern Churches and I also believe that is what was meant by the original wording. HOWEVER--there is also the underlying acceptance of the general conservative nature of both the Catholic hierarchy and the generally conservative nature of the Faith iyself (conservative in the sense of holding to tradition, keeping what has been passed down for generations, that sort of thing)

This has been an excessively stressful period for all of us and we will all be lessened if some of our voices are silenced. I take good from reading ALL OF YOU--Chavez and DB and Duckie and...ALL OF YOU. Even if and when I don't necessarily agree with your POV. WE NEED THE DIVERSITY HERE!!!!!!
:rant:

Okay, now don't make me do that again. Typing one-handed is a pain.
:grouphug:

[JohnKleeb]

40. Shit thats what I thought too

about the Orthodox.

[XanaDUer]

41. I gues it's like "catholic" and "Catholic"

catholic=universal.

Catholic, well you know. :)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ElectroPrincess]

8. DemBones, I beg you please try to understand THAT

I was only making a simple point and referring to the *generic* Catholic Leadership at the highest level. I honestly was NOT in any way, shape or form referring to you.

On topic: I feel sorrow that we do not make an extra effort to welcome some folks who may be "rough around the edges" ... they may be on the way to an awakening IF ONLY someone would patiently show them kindness and understanding of frustration.

Best regards to all and a special welcome to the new folks to this forum. :-)

On edit: Self amended to express increased understanding. <blush>

[DemBones DemBones]

10. I might make the same request of you -- and I will suggest

to you, as I did to Princess Turandot, that if you dislike me/ can't stand my posts, simply put me on Ignore.

I note that you did not reply to my post addressed to you, but instead to my post addressed to Chavez. May I ask you to carefully read my post to Chavez (post #4) for a better understanding of some issues you are likely unaware of?

I would also hope you could find it in your heart to express the depth of your faith by "patiently showing . . . kindness and understanding of frustration" to me, as you are urging "someone" to "show kindness and understanding of frustration" toward "some folks who may be 'rough around the edges'. "

May the peace of Christ be with you.

[ElectroPrincess]

12. I do NOT dislike you ... I admire your knowledge base

Gee, I get fired-up, then I felt guilty because I was too blunt in my original post.

No DemBones, I like you. Who wants to chat with someone who just mirrors your beliefs? That's boring. Besides, I have learned from your posts.

However, my greatest weakness is pride. Sometimes it's how you "put it" that will sometimes not settle well with me.

I will try to be more understanding while reading your future posts.

Peace be with you :-)

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I agree -- who wants to chat with someone who just mirrors your beliefs?

BORING!!!

One of my best friends at DU is both pro-choice and an atheist, a description that applies to some of my real-life friends, too. I even have Republican friends and one who is an evangelical Protestant Republican who voted for * and supports the war!

[Princess Turandot]

44. I don't need to put you on ignore..

what troubles me is the notion that any DU group should rigidly adhere to an original mission statement, which you have reiterated frequently to me. If something disturbs me about the Church, I want to talk abt it here, with other Catholics, not on GD with Catholic bashers. I think that can be done in a civilized manner and since none of us are in a position to change Church policy on anything, I do not see the harm in that.

My interpretation of the mission statement is that those types of discussions are, if not banned, extremely frowned upon. I think that is the wrong approach. I've personally been invited in a PM to leave the group because I was 'disrespectful' of the Church because (I think) that I was suggesting that we needed a broader goal. (That suggestion was subsequently rescinded.) I've been a Catholic for more decades that I want to contemplate, and accordingly have a perspective relative to Catholicism that differs from yours. I think that I and others, have earned the right to express disagreement with some of the teachings of the Church on social policy.( I don't have any authority to speak on theological issues.) My sense is that the mission statement was set up in such a way as to define 'critical' discussions beyond the incredibly meek, as inflammatory and Catholic bashing. The notion of us needing multiple Catholic groups because some people do not want the Church to ever be criticized is bizarre to me. If a lapsed Catholic wants to come to this group and discuss in a civil way whatever turned he or she away from the faith, I think that's a good thing. It might bring the person closer to Catholicism again.

I've seen you post in this group (I believe) about 40 million dead babies, because you are anti-abortion. I think I have the right to disagree with your perspective on that. I have no thoughts that I will convince you to hold a different position, but I firmly believe that I should have the right to disagree with that position, w/o being threatened with expulsion just as you have the right to express your views.

[ElectroPrincess]

9. I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your husband's recent illness ...

My husband almost died of a few years back, so in a different body system (keto-acidosis - Type I Diabetic), I have some sense of empathy of what stress you are going through. I hope he does better soon ... I also understand that such extreme worry never brought the best out in me. So yes, I hope that I wasn't too curt in the above post. If I was, I'm sorry for I do not wish to be rude in any way or add to your stress.

I'm not sucking-up when I claim that you are *very* knowledgeable and I enjoy reading the vast majority of your posts.

Besides, I think we're all a little "on edge" with the recent events. :-)

Best Wishes for your Husband's speedy recovery. EP

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Thank you. I fully acknowledge that

I may have said things that seemed rude because I am under stress, but if you knew me you would know that I am not intentionally rude unless someone has been rude to me first.

Our posts have crossed. :-)

DB DB

[ElectroPrincess]

13. I'm learning and thank you for the explanation /eom

[DemBones DemBones]

14. P.S. I was away for a few minutes after I had posted

my first replies in this thread and my husband was so ill I thought I was going to be driving him to the ER again tonight. Since you've been through your own husband's serious illness, I know you understand the adrenaline rush and fear I got out of that!
He was having PVCs this afternoon and then vertigo tonight.

What ELSE can go wrong today? (Please, Lord, I don't want to know!)

Please keep us in your prayers.

DB DB

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

15. Listen - when my friend Stop the Morans came in he was summarily

drummed out when all he did was post a passage of the Gospel and voiced some views that some more "conservative" Catholics disagreed with. I read all his posts and there was noting Catholic Bashing about them and he is a good guy. I felt that, rather than debate, he was alerted on and drummed out. That's not the way people in my Parish would have reacted.

Maybe I need to take a step back. This is certainly not to dis anybody in the group. I just need to chill a bit and talk to Mary about it some. I'll come back with a better, more serene mindset and will debate.

- Peace and may the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus always draw you closer towards Love.

[Cuban_Liberal]

24. Peace, Chavez.

:hug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. Peace to you as well.

We have some tough times ahead of us and we will need each other alot.

:hug:

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. Well said.

As Ben Franklin said, we must hang together, for we shall most assuredly hang separately.

:pals:

[SeanQuinn]

29. Peace to all. This is not the time to be bickering. n/t

[Maeve]

35. What Sean said! eom

[ronnykmarshall]

42. Amen!

The last 24 hours has been draining for me.

You, Tony and Chavez said it all.

Peace be with you all.

[etherealtruth]

47. Agreed, still not a time to bicker...

....but, it may now be OK to debate what the Catholic members of the DU want to achieve in this forum AND to continue to support each other in our grief.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. If a Protestant may butt in, here

I've just read the Group's mission statement, and the reference seems to be not to "orthodox" (i.e. more conservative) Catholics but to Eastern Orthodox Christians, as in Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Syrian Orthodox. Am I right?

[Maeve]

46. I believe you are, Lydia

That has been my understanding from the start. (and the Uniates, the formerly Eastern churches that keep Orthodox rites, but are in allegiance with the Pope)

[etherealtruth]

45. Debate is healthy...

As a reasonably new member of the DU I entered the Catholic forum assuming that it was a forum where Roman Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox Catholics) could come together to discuss issues free from anti-Catholic bias. Unfortunately ChavezspeakstheTruth is more correct than wrong.

In no way did it ever occur to me that this was a "politically conservative" forum ---- This forum is part of the DU; the DU is progressive period (agreeing that there is a broad spectrum of what constitutes progressive). Reading the "charter" (the appropriate term escapes me), my assumption was that some of the contentious issues confronting the Church were to be avoided as they would cause a rift with in the group (though I disagreed) ----- this appears NOT to be the motivation.

It appears to me that the most progressive voices are not welcome by a few members here. Debate, even vigorous debate, is generally very good. My views and positions are usually arrived at after much reflection---I am NOT threatened by opposing views. It is unfortunate that a few are so disturbed by disagreement. I carefully read those who oppose my views and I carefully consider the more intelligent, logical and thoughtful views, at times I will revise my position. Unfortunately I do not consider parroting dogma as a response, the Catholic Church has a long history of careful philosophical thought, so it probably is never necessary in an argument to state, "that's what the church says."

I am not a devout Catholic------though I was raised in a very devout home, in an area I liken to a suburban middle class Catholic ghetto, I attended a parochial grade school in the 1970s and I have been blessed by the presence of Catholic intellectuals in my life ... I think of myself, at times, as making a Pascalian wager or as a poster earlier described him/her self as a Catholic agnostic. What I do know is that the PEOPLE make the church and we are all the face of the Catholic church in America. We all have a voice; the assumption in this venue is that we will all have a progressive voice (I am not stating that all progressives are pro-choice or all anything...)

I must comment: leading up to the Popes death and following it, this forum was truly Catholic----welcoming all who came and providing support to all who grieve.