Is there really such a thing as a "cafeteria catholic?"

[hedgehog]

Where I disagree with Church teaching, my disagreement is based on personal knowledge and prayer. For example, mandatory celibacy for priests has a long and checkered history, as does the ban on artificial contraception. Given that at least part of the motivation for maintaining these rules is the wish to preserve authority, isn't it possible that it is my duty as a Catholic to argue against them? Were St. Francis and Saint Therese D'Avila cafeteria catholics? They certainly went up against the Church authorities in their day.

[DemBones DemBones]

1. Good question. I'll be interested to see what others have to say.

You cited two of my favorite saints so I'll definitely have to think about this. . .

:think:

[Maeve]

2. I've noticed a lot of folks who use that term

Also believe in the death penalty. :shrug:

I'm with the guy who said, "The Catholic Church means 'Here comes everybody.'"

[pelagius]

17. When I was high school student...

...I was given the opportunity to attend the local Jesuit college for English courses, since I had exhausted what was available at my school. My teacher was a Jesuit priest who was one of the first people I can recall who respected me intellectually and challenged me to think, rather than shut up and stop saying uncomfortable things.

I remember discussing some point of theology with him (I was a Protestant, I should point out) at length. At the end, he smiled and said, "You'd make a great Jesuit."

"But, Father," I protested, "I'm not even Catholic!"

He replied, "Oh, yes, you are. We all are, but not everybody realizes it yet."

Love the "Here comes everbody" quote.

[Reverend_Smitty]

3. You bring up a great point...

I've always had a problem with that term for that reason. I've always felt that the church has encouraged people to be free thinkers, and to do that is going to make for differing opinions. If it weren't for so called "cafeteria catholics" we would still be paying indulgences and holding grand inquisitions for non believers. The church is a living thing so today's taboo will be tomorrow's orthodoxy...there is no shame in trying to improve the system. As long as you stay true to the teachings of Jesus, the laws of man are always subject to change

[imenja]

4. well said

That is precisely how I feel.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. Exactly.

I frankly dislike the term, finding it used most often in a dismissive context. You express my own thoughts well, however.

[sandnsea]

11. free thinkers

That's what gets me when people talk about the punitiveness and authoritarianism of the Church. Where in the world did Luther get the idea he could come up with his Proclamation if there wasn't some level of free thinking encouraged? Or Galileo even learn about science if education wasn't encouraged? It makes no sense that all of Europe was living under a rigid oppressed Catholic theology when so much advancement came. And where did the history about Jews and usury go, which was a HUGE part of the dissention between Catholics and Jews. Why do people keep sticking the Catholic Church with the darkest things from its history, but ignore the history of other religions. We have women saints, women going all over the world doing all sorts of things besides being mothers, yet the work of the nuns is ignored as well. How much did these courageous females help change the perception of what women were capable of doing? Where'd they get their courage? Christ and the Church. Is Catholicism not the only mainstream religion that has actually elevated a woman to a role that should be worshipped? Yet Catholicism is solely responsible for the oppression of women?? The narrow view of the Church makes no common sense to me at all.

[pelagius]

18. I have a strong interest in intellectual history...

...and in my studies I stumbled across a remarkable book by Professor Alan Charles Kors called _Atheism in France, 1650-1729: The Orthodox Sources of Disbelief_. OK, so I'm outing myself as a complete nerd, but I was fascinated by his thesis that atheism was not a product of various "free thought" movements, but of Christianity itself. He argues quite convincingly that without the underpinning of Christan thought, the Enlightenment itself would have been impossible.

Not light reading, but very interesting ideas.

More on the book at:

http://tinyurl.com/eyupa

Note: Kors is himself an atheist and rationalist, not a Christian apologist by any stretch of the imagination.

[etherealtruth]

5. While I agree with what you say ...

...Catholicism is practiced "differently" in the United States (and Western Europe) than it is practiced by most world Catholics. Of course we have duties to stand up for that which we "know' is right and we do ...but how far can you stray and still be Catholic? I think I have struggled with that question for years.

The following link gives Catholic values from around the world (U.S. included):http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-05-us-catholics-cover_x.htm

[Maeve]

7. Interesting article

The only industrialized countries listed besides the US are Spain and Germany--both are much closer to the US attitudes than the others, even more "liberal" than us on some aspects. And the question arises are we really different in practice or just in admitting our differences to pollsters....the article seems to want there to be a chasm, too--better headline, doncha know.

Can you recite the Creed on Sunday in good faith? That's the essence; the rest is commentary. As one of the great churchmen of Vatican I said concerning the ruling on infallability "If it's a matter between the church and my conscience, I'll follow my conscience." (paraphrase of Cardinal Newman)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

8. Actually, I'm on birth control...

But it's more for health reasons than for not getting pregnant reasons. You can disagree with the Church. They want you to question and follow your own conscience. THAT is what drew me to the church. I also don't agree with their ideas about Gay Rights. But I see where they get that idea, even though they do say that the bible is just a nice guide, and don't take it literally, the are guilty of doing that too. I think it has more to do with the heads of the church than the priests and deacons at individual churches. But I will tell you that if a gay man or woman came to the church, they wouldn't turn them away. They love the "sinner", hate the "sin", which is what we're all called to do.
Duckie

[meow2u3]

13. Your case is an example of the "double effect"

The "double effect", in the case of the birth control pill, is when someone is undergoing treatment for a medical malady, such as a reproductive hormone imbalance, her doctor can prescribe hormone treatments such as the pill to correct that imbalance and/or regulate her periods, even if the meds cause the side effect of preventing pregnancy.

In other words, the correction or out-of-kilter hormones is what's intended; the birth control effects are not.

[IronLionZion]

9. It's your God-given right to question the rules of men

Hell, it's your duty to question these rules. I think the ones who just blindly accept everything are the ones with weak faith. When you question these things it helps you to understand yourself and your faith better. And the rules certainly do change dramatically over the years. There was a time when the church was decidedly pro-death and pro-war. Good Catholics questioned it, some were burned at the stake, and eventually the rules changed.

How many people do you know who agree with every single rule of the church? Cardinals don't even agree on everything! If you kicked out these so-called "cafeteria Catholics" there would be no Catholic church.

[hedgehog]

10. We seem to be in general agreement

I tend to agree with Maeve's point. It seems to me that "cafeteria catholic" is a pejorative term used by those for whom birth control is no longer an issue and who also tend to ignore Church teachings regarding war, peace, capital punishment, capitalism, etc.

[meow2u3]

14. The right uses "Cafeteria Catholic" to bash left-wing CC's

Yet they don't see that they're right-wing cafeteria Catholics--namely Rick Santorum, InJustice Scalia, Sham Brownshirt, etc.

[Maeve]

12. At mass this weekend, Father noted we are ALL cafeteria Catholics!

Pointed out that none of us follow ever single teaching, and recommended looking to ourselves instead of pointing fingers.

[Midlodemocrat]

15. I agree with that.

I think we are all cafeteria Catholics in one way or another. And, I like it that way.

[Reverend_Smitty]

16. Precisely...

If I recall correctly some famous dude once said...He who is without sin, may cast the first stone. :P There isn't a single person alive who can say that they have followed the teachings of Jesus 100% of the time so why try to point out fault in others when there is plenty of work to be done on ourselves