A few quotes that I found

[Pendrench]

Hello -

With all of the recent discussions concerning Pope Benedict and whether or not his involvement with the Hitler Youth qualifies him as a Nazi (or at least a Nazi sympathizer), I thought that the following quotes were kind of interesting:

"I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed."
Mahatma Ghandi, May 1940


"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."
Winston Churchill (from his 1937 book, Great Contemporaries)


Naturally, one could argue that both of these quotes were before the world knew the true extent of the Nazi's atrocities, but even after the war Ghandi said the following:


"Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs." Mahatma Ghandi, June 1946


All three of these quotes were found at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Ghandi


Should we now, therefore, accuse Churchill and Ghandi of being Nazi sympathizers?


I guess what I'm saying here is that if people have issues with the pope (and the entire Catholic Church for that matter) then they should be not only free to do so, but encouraged to do so - as long as it is done with mutual civility and respect. And to me, the Pope's involvement with the Hitler Youth is more of an accident of history and geography rather than an affirmation of ideology.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Thanks -

Tim

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. OK, now let's reread that quote in the context of Ghandi's non-violent

resistance and see if it still reads the same:The Life of Mahatma Gandhi
by Louis Fischer
The Nazi press assaulted Gandhi savagely for these words. It threatened reprisals against India. “I should rank myself a coward,” he replied, “if for fear of my country or myself or Indo-German relations being harmed, I hesitated to give what I felt in the innermost recesses of my heart to be one hundred percent sound advice.”

The missionaries questioned him closely on his statements about the Jews. “To be truly non-violent,” he said, “I must love and pray for him even when he hits me.” The Jews should pray for Hitler. “If even one Jew acted thus, he would save his self-respect and leave an example which, if it became infectious, would save the whole of Jewry and leave a rich heritage to mankind besides.”

Herman Kallenbach was living in Sevagram Ashram at the time. “He has an intellectual belief in non-violence,” Gandhi remarked, “but he says he cannot pray for Hitler... I do not quarrel with him over his anger. He wants to be non-violent, but the sufferings of his fellow Jews are too much for him to bear. What is true of him is true of thousands of Jews who have no thought even of ‘loving the enemy.’ With them, as with millions, ‘revenge is sweet, to forgive is divine.’” There were few divine Jews or Christians or Hindus. Only one little Hindu and very few of his friends were capable of divine forgiveness.

Jewish Frontier, a New York magazine, riddled Gandhi’s proposal in March, 1939, and sent him a copy. He quoted at length from the attack. “I did not entertain the hope… that the Jews would be at once converted to my view,” Gandhi replied. “I should have been satisfied if even one Jew had been fully convinced and converted… It is highly probable that, as the writer says, ‘A Jewish Gandhi in Germany, should one arise, could function for about five minutes and would be promptly taken to the guillotine.’ But that does not disprove my case or shake my belief in the efficacy of non-violence. I can conceive the necessity of the immolation of hundreds, if not thousands, to appease the hunger of dictators… Sufferers need not see the result in their lifetime… The method of violence gives no greater guarantee than that of non-violence…” Millions sacrifice themselves in war without any guarantee that the world will be better as a result or even that the enemy will be defeated. Yet who does not fiercely resent the suggestion that anybody die in deliberate non-violent sacrifice?

I mentioned the subject to Gandhi in 1946 when Hitler was dead. “Hitler,” Gandhi said, “killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs… It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany… As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.”

http://die_meistersinger.tripod.com/gandhi9.html

[Pendrench]

2. Thanks for your response

Hello -

I appreciate the time and effort you put forth in responding to my original post...and (as I mentioned) this shows how dangerous it is to take a quote (or the events from someone's life) out of context.

Again - thank you very much.

Tim

[DemBones DemBones]

3. It's good that you cleared that up; now if we could

only clear up the fact that people living in dictatorships are sometimes forced to do things they don't want to do or be killed and the fact that none of us can know what we would do in such a situation unless we actually are confronted with it.

DUers don't hold Senator Byrd's long-ago membership in the Ku Klux Klan against him today, even though he was an adult when he joined the Klan voluntarily some sixty years ago. His use of the phrase "white nigger" in recent years has also been dismissed by DUers.

Thus, it's quite interesting how many here have latched onto Josef Ratzinger's "support" of Hitler when the reality is that he and his brother, both teenagers, were forced to participate in the Hitler Youth and later to serve in the army for a time. Perhaps they should have martyred themselves by refusing to serve but perhaps they feared for their parents as well as for themselves. Or perhaps they thought they could do more good for humanity by living and serving people since both also went into seminary in their late teens or early twenties, with Josef being drafted out of the seminary.

But why do people who weren't there feel that they can judge the man who has become Pope Benedict XVI some sixty years later?

Why is Benedict called "Nazi" when Byrd is not called "Klansman"?

The "Know-Nothings" have returned to America and some can be found at DU.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. I think it's up to Ratzinger to clear that up

and I have avoided passing judgement. My only issue is with Ratzinger's rhetoric on certain issues.
I do think he needs to address it though. My neighbor lived through the same era at the same age and managed to resist.

[demosincebirth]

6. Very well put.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. Thanks for sharing that information and

welcome to DU and to the Catholic group! :hi:


What you said here sums up the current problems at DU perfectly:

"I guess what I'm saying here is that if people have issues with the pope (and the entire Catholic Church for that matter) then they should be not only free to do so, but encouraged to do so - as long as it is done with mutual civility and respect. And to me, the Pope's involvement with the Hitler Youth is more of an accident of history and geography rather than an affirmation of ideology."

Civility and respect would be wonderful!