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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-04 05:11 PM
Original message
Funny how those who hate Christians for "forcing their views" ...
are trying to force THEIR views. These are some of the things I have seen on DU.

Don't they see you CAN'T paint everyone with a broad brush? Geez, it just makes me so ANGRY. We (Catholics here in this group) haven't done anything to them, yet we get attacked from all sides. The Protestants hate us because we are idol worshipers and heretics, the Agnostics and Atheists hate us because we are "them".

Obviously, this is not all atheists, agnostics or protestants, but there are a few small groups of people that do this. "You're an idiot, it's all fairy tales...blah blah blah".

I don't believe that I am particularly gullible. I love to know the science behind things. That is WHY I believe in God. Everything in our bodies and in the world works in such harmony. The tiniest things are amazing when you break them down. You get a cut and you take it for granted that it will heal within a week or so. But inside your body so much is going on to let that happen. A baby is born and it looks like its parents. Again, we take it for granted. Yet so much had to go right for that to occur. Then you go into nature and it's AMAZING. Plants take in the CO2 and produce oxygen as waste and humans take in O2 and produce CO2 as waste. We are able to breathe because of the laws of physics. The sun doesn't kill us because of the gases in the atmosphere. The high specific heat of water allows there to be life on this planet. It's absolutely amazing. There is no greater art than the dynamics of the world. I, personally, think it would be awfully arrogant of me to believe that it was all an accident. But I'm not going to tell anyone they can't believe that or that they are an idiot for believing that, because I don't believe they are. We all are touched by God in different ways.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-04 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great point
Ive always been a believer of "You believe what you want to and respect my beliefs and I'll do the same in return", I wish people could do this.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Hey, John, have I got a thread for YOU!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2843189

Up for grabs: Do you believe the Christmas story?

I have to admit I am getting bolder in my responses to these kinds of bait-threads.

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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I responded just now to the guy who talked about idiotic belief systems..
I'm starting to think we need a universal response. Now people are going off on LBN about the Pope after WW2 supposedly not wanting to give Jewish children which the Church sheltered back to their parents, if they survived the camps. The reference is of course to some 'main stream' publication </sarcasm>. They must go looking for these things.I'm convinced of it.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Here's one for you....
(and, sorry, I'm too tired to go searching for the thread)

In the course of the discussion concerning the Pope calling for Jesus to have compassion on humanity (Midnight Mass homily), someone tried to explain that the bashing of religion -- Catholicism in particular -- was appropriate, because organized religion has no value and most people can't stand it anyway.

She closed her tirade by saying, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the sacristy."

Wha...? Wait a minute...if you "can't stand" religion, what the heck are you doing in a SACRISTY, and shouldn't WE be the ones to ask HER to leave???

Do they THINK about what they post? Do they READ what they post?

It would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

A positive development to report, though: I think the sentiment is growing that widely spewed hate is a turn-off, and very unliberal and illogical. This was seen in one of the many threads on Reggie White.
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. This was what I posted, to the guy who was defending the
bashing of idiotic beliefs(post 107):

"Semantics count a lot..


and in my case,they tell me why some of this discussion should be "out of bounds." If you cannot have a discussion on religion without referring to any faith as an 'idiotic belief system', then you should not be posting about it, as far as I am concerned. There's a way to have a civil discourse about this without beginning with flat out insults to people whom you know have religious beliefs that you do not share.

I am assuming that you address your posts to people of any faith on DU, since we are the people who read them. I think there are very few 'fundies' here or people who wish to stone women for adultery, and I think that you know that. So, I have to conclude that you have no qualms about insulting and trashing people who share political beliefs with you. The first sentence of your post here makes me want to share nothing with you, given how tolerant your perspective is. You think that you are mocking religion when in reality you mock the notion behind this website."

I doubt it will be responded to.




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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I've noticed that when you calmly and rationally point out
how and where their arguments fail, rarely will they reply.

I encountered that a few times this week myself, when I also pointed out what you nicely said above. I think it's a rather easy concept to learn: Disagreement does not have to engender hate; disagreement does not have to preclude respect.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. Did you see the thread today that

basically said Catholics must leave the Church (we're enabling the GOP, you know) and suggested everybody become Unitarian Universalists because the poster THOUGHT the UCC SEEMS to be the best church out there?

:argh:
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Here's another gem.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I like UU but I am a Catholic and thats all I have to say about that
I also was in the minority in the taxing churches lounge poll, that didn't get too ugly honestly but people have to understand that most churches aren't really that big.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. We should begin a "Post of the Day" "thread
Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 04:39 PM by AngryOldDem
Sort of like Capital Gang's "Outrage of the Week" spot.

See my post to JohnKleeb above for my nomination for Dec. 19.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think that's a great idea
It will help blow off steam.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Although this one might give it a run for its money
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Maybe we should start awarding..
the 'Pink Cross of the Thread' to the first person who posts a derogatory comment abt Catholicism, Jesus or Christianity in a thread to which they have no relevance.

The award title is just a working one.

" we hereby award you the Pink Cross of Non-Relevancy for the first mention of religion in this thread, despite its original non-religious topic. Feel free to flame us as we turn the other cheek."
(And then make no further responses.)

I can host a photo of the award on my webspace.lol It's too bad that we have no priests: we could reward the person with special indulgences!
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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Beautifully put.
That really puts faith into perspective.
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Beware the Beast Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. For the sake of getting flamed by a passer-by,
I've seen some athiest posters that have been more bigoted, hateful, ignorant and aggressive than any religious person I ever met, fundy or otherwise. They take any mention of someone's personal relationship with God as an affront to their(non)belief.
/rant off
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Very true. I doubt that any of us would ever mention our

faith at DU if it weren't constantly being attacked here.

I've been at DU since early 2001 and have never seen a Christian post that non- believers are wrong/ stupid/ going to Hell. Someone may have said such things to them in their real lives but nobody says it here. I think it's safe to say none of us say such things to people in our real lives, either.

We catch their anger for what others have said to them -- or for what they imagine others think of them. Some say they have been hurt by religion, through negative experiences with religious family members or clergy, etc., and seem unable to realize that religious people's bad behavior is not caused by their religious beliefs anymore than nonbeliever's bad behavior is caused by their agnostic or atheistic beliefs. Bad behavior always comes of people going against their good beliefs, whether they find good in religion or outside it.

We must remember to pray for those who hate us, pray that God will heal their hearts and take away the hurt and hatred.

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Beer Snob-50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. I cannot believe how ugly non-catholics can get when you
mention you are a catholic. unfortunatly, i have seen and i have dealt with the minority of "conservative catholics" who are strident in their beliefs and turn others off to the catholic faith.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's the thing
Edited on Sat Dec-18-04 04:31 PM by Stunster
I don't think any Catholic knowledgeable about Church history would deny that some pretty bad things have been done in the name of the Church.

But.... I would not regard it as a good argument against atheism that millions of people were slaughtered by atheist regimes (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ceaucescu, Hoxha), that professedly atheist regimes invaded Tibet, Afghanistan, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I mean, it's logically possible that atheists have done bad things AND that atheism is true.

Yet, I find a lot of atheists/agnostics/anti-religious people will cite the harms done by the Catholic Church as an institution, or by some individuals within it, as evidence that Catholicism/Christianity must be false. The irony is that such people pride themselves on not being irrational. But there's an obvious logical fallacy in their reasoning.

Next, a lot of ex-Catholics cite some unpleasant encounter with a priest, nun, Catholic school teacher, or even a family member, for why they left the Church. Again, I find this irrational. Suppose I attend a meeting of the Democratic Party, and some person, whom I happen to know is an atheist, says something dumb or rude. Does this prove that atheism is false? No. So why should a Catholic saying something dumb or rude prove that Catholicism is false? I mean, it just doesn't, does it?

The next stupid argument that people give is that religion causes wars and social division. Yes, well, so does politics, and economics. Should everyone shun politics and economics because of the long history of war and bloodshed associated with the pursuit of political power and economic advantage? One may as well say that human beings are responsible for wars, and other evils, and therefore that one should have nothing to do with human beings. But that's a nutty argument, isn't it?

God, I think, makes his presence known in lots of subtle ways. But these can be ignored or missed. And God doesn't usually intrude on people who want to be left alone. Atheists often accuse religious believers of believing in God because they want to believe (they want a fatherly Protector, they want to live beyond death, they want good to triumph over evil, etc). But why can't they see that the same charge could equally well be levelled at atheists---that perhaps they don't believe because they don't want to believe? Religious belief, if taken seriously, tends to be spiritually and morally demanding. Why would someone want to be burdened by heavy spiritual and moral burdens? Wouldn't it be easier, more natural even, to want the non-existence of God? To want there to be no definitive judgement of one's life in moral terms, to want there to be no higher authority than oneself, to want not to inconvenienced by duties of prayer, church attendance, and to do whatever one feels like doing, as far as one can get away with it? I don't think this applies to all atheists. But it strikes me that in some cases the motivations for their atheism are suspect.

Ever since Marx and Freud, even people who are not Marxists or
Freudians frequently offer those thinkers' theories as to the illusory
nature of religious belief. It is important to see how atrocious these sorts of psychologizing arguments are, as *arguments* for the falsity of religious belief. They are, despite their popularity, amzingly weak to the point of being rationally unusable, since they commit the logical error known as the Genetic Fallacy.

Let me quote from philosopher Nicholas Rescher:

Of course, there still remains the well-trodden prospect of
antitheological psychologizing. The general line is all too familiar:
"You see the traditional monotheistic God as desirable merely because
he answers a psychological need of yours. You have a psychological
yearing for acceptance, validation, support. Your God is a mere
parent-substitute to meet the needs of a weak and dependent creature."
So argues the psychologizing opponent of axological theism.
But this sort of facile sort of psychologizing ultimately cuts both
ways. For the axological theist can readily respond along the
following lines: You see the traditional monotheistic God as
undesirable because you find the very idea threatening. You atheists
too are "God fearing," but in a rather different sense. You are afraid
of God. You have an adolescent's fixated fear of and a condemnation by
authority. Your atheism roots in self-contempt. Recognizing what an
imperfect creature you yourself are, you have a fear of being judged
and found wanting. The very idea of God is threatening to you because
you fear the condemnation of an intellige nt observer who knows what
you think and do. You are enmeshed in an adolescent aversion to
parental disapproval.

So runs the psychologizing counterargument. And this line is not
without surface plausibility. Many people are in fact frightened by
the prospect of a belief in God because they ultimately have a
contempt of themselves. They feel threatened by a belief that God
might exist, because they feel that, were it so, God would not approve
of them. For them, atheism is a security shield of sorts that protects
them against an ego-damaging disapproval by somebody who "knows all,
sees all." Atheists are not inf requently people on whose inmost
nature the vice of self-contempt has its strongest hold. Pretentions
to the contrary notwithstanding, the atheist's actual posture is
generally not a self-confident independence of spirit, but a fear of
being judged.

In this regard, then, there is simply a standoff in regard to a
Freud-style psychologizing about religion. Those psychologizing
arguments that impute rationally questionable motives that can be
deployed against the believer are not difficult to revise and redirect
as arguments against the atheists. Psychologizing is a sword that cuts
both ways in regard to axiological theism. Both sides can easily play
the game of projecting, on a speculative basis, a daunting variety of
intellectually non-respectable motives for holding the point of view
that they oppose.


And philosopher Alvin Plantinga says this:

Freud's jejune speculations as to the psychological origin of
religion and Marx's careless claims about its social role can't
sensibly be taken as providing argument or reason for... the
nonexistence of God; so taken they present textbook cases (which in
fact are pretty rare) of the genetic fallacy. If such speculations and
claims have a respectable role to play, it is instead perhaps that of
providing a naturalistic explanation for the wide currency of
religious belief, or perhaps that of attempting to discredit religious
belief by tracing it to a disreputable source. But of course that
doesn't constitute anything like evidence for God's nonexistence or a reason to think theism false. One might as well cite as evidence for the existence of God St. Paul's claim (Romans 1) that
failure to believe in God is a result of sin and rebellion against God.


In other words, if it is open to the atheist to speculate about the psychology that underlies theism, it is just as open to the theist to speculate about the psychology that underlies atheism. And of course some theists (e.g. St Paul, Pascal) have done just that. But at least they, unlike some atheists, don't make the blatant logical error of thinking that their psychological speculations are evidence or arguments for the falsity of atheism. No theist argues that atheism is false because of the psychology of atheists.

Would that the reverse were true!

In sum, I find that for all the self-proclaimed supposed rationalism of the critics of the Church and its Faith, they are more often than not liable to betray themselves in elementary errors of reasoning.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks for that incredibly well written response
A belated welcome to DU. :hi:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Okay, that's what keeps me tuned into Catholicism
You gave me alot to think about, softened my heart a bit, maybe I can get back on my spiritual path. The thing I've always appreciated about Catholicism, theologically, is the encouragement of reason and informing your conscience through all means available. You've definitely helped do that, thanks for your post.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I'll say it again: stunster's posts add a lot to
Edited on Mon Dec-20-04 06:19 PM by DemBones DemBones
our group and DU as a whole.


stunster, :yourock:
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. You could add Attila the Hun..
whom I doubt killed many in his wake because of religion, and Alexander the Great, who pretty much did the same thing, also not because of religion. Some people think he was the first person to use biological warfare, by catapulting the corpses of dead plague victims over the walls of enemy fortresses.

One of the books of Macchabees I think, says of Alexander,quite poetically, that when he was done, 'the world was silent before him'. That's probably because he killed quite a few people along the way.

Read the 'Rape of Nanking'. The Japanese today contribute, I believe, the greatest share of their GDP than any other to aid other nations. I wonder sometimes if that is their way of atonement for their collective actions during WW2.

Finally, while people like to yap about the Crusades (for the record I completely agree the *'s use of that term was in very bad taste) they forget that the Holy Land and the rest of the Mid-East changed hands many times over the ages because of war, including several between opposing Muslim factions.
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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Technical questions abt DU..
when a thread is 'Archived' does that mean it no longer appears as an active or locked thread in the 'room' where it was started, but
can still appear in a search?

Also, do threads ever get completely deleted here, or just locked and/or archived?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yes, that describes what happens to archived threads.

Some threads are deleted but not many.
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