Can someone explain to me just what is beautiful about the

[hedgehog]

Latin Mass?

It's been a cliche so long that no one questions It. The original English translation had some real clunkers in it, and the folk mass hymns of the early 70's were not to be believed. However, that was then and the current English language Mass is a true celebration of the Body of Christ. What could be more beautiful? To me, the push to return to Latin is an aspect of a theology of a distant superior judgmental God totally separate from us. Other aspects include a desire to bar the laity from the sanctuary and to separate (and incidentally elevate)the clergy. The kingdom of Heaven becomes a royal court with nobility and peasantry. Only the elect are allowed to approach. I prefer the current emphasis on the kingdom of Heaven as God's beloved family.

[Dorian Gray]

1. Personally,

I prefer the current English mass that I know. However, I have heard it argued that there is a beauty in the communion of all faithful living through the exact same mass in the world. (In my mind, the language of the mass does not change its content, therefore, we still are living through the same thing when we attend mass, despite the differences in languages around the world.)

[DemBones DemBones]

2. I guess it's like Louis Armstrong said when someone asked him

to explain jazz -- "If you don't already get it, you ain't never gonna get it."

Perhaps you don't understand the beauty of the Latin Mass because you've never, or rarely, attended one? Many people feel that hearing Mass said in words not fully understood helps them to concentrate on truths behind words. The fact that the same exact words were said worldwide when the liturgy was all in Latin was also inspiring to many. Obviously, you don't see it that way or feel the beauty of the Latin Mass. But that doesn't mean that those of us who recall the beauty of Latin Mass are mistaken. It's just a difference of opinion.

As for "the push to return to Latin," what push would that be? I haven't heard of any such push, apart from the small minority of traditionalists who now drive long distances to hear Mass in Latin. Many dioceses don't have a Latin Mass offered in any of their churches and I think that is a shame. I'd have to drive an hour and a half or more to get to the one church offering Latin Mass in my diocese. I think the Church shouldn't have gone to English only (or vernacular only, to be correct) but allowed both Latin and Novus Ordo. But few Catholics seem to favor a return to Latin Mass as the only form and probably many would protest such a change. I just hope the Latin Mass is allowed to survive and be available to more Catholics. It's an important part of Catholic heritage.

And the funny thing is, everyone uses the Latin "Novus Ordo" to name the new order of Mass, the vernacular/no kneeling at the altar rail Mass.

:shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

4. Just to preface

I DO NOT know the Latin Mass well. I've only been to one a handful of times. That is why I prefer the English Mass. It's what I know. :)

Having said that, I do understand why those who grew up with the Latin Mass prefer that, and I also understand the arguments why people would prefer it. Living in NYC, we do have the choice to attend Latin masses. Not every church, but there are a few that offer the Traditional Latin Mass. So, we are quite lucky here. The choice exists.

As for other Catholic masses, I'm interested in attending a Marionite Catholic Mass in Manhattan. I've heard interesting things about the Eastern Rite Catholic masses, and it would be fascinating to attend one.

[Matilda]

3. It would be nice to have a choice, as we did for a while.

I was living in London in the mid-late sixties, and for a while one
mass every Sunday - usually 10.30 - was in Latin. In the first
parish I attended, it was a full sung mass with an excellent choir,
so that's the one my Catholic flatmate and I usually attended, even
though it was 15 minutes longer than the Novus Ordo. We just liked
the music.

One good thing about the Latin Mass was that you could attend Mass
anywhere in the world and take part fully, because of course we
knew all the Latin (and Greek) responses. I travelled from Western
to Eastern Europe and down to Israel, and was able to take part in
the Mass all the way. But just one year later I again travelled
round Europe, and by this time the Latin Mass had gone, and I could
attend Mass, but not participate because I wasn't even fluent enough
in French to actually say any prayers. It was still nice to go, but
a different feeling when you just stay silent all the way through.

But I do like the greater accessibility of the Novus Ordo to the
laity - it's more friendly and open; I like to see the priest's face
and not his back, and it's a good thing that the people are not shut
out of the sanctuary, or the sacristy for that matter.

[Princess Turandot]

5. It's not clear from your post whether you attended Mass in Latin..

originally. As a child, I always loved the ceremony and musicality of it. The Mass in english was a bit of a let down to me. I do not think that in the 20th C at least that it represented the separation of peasants from the royals, since by then most people could read. I had a missal which had the translation of the Mass into english on one side. Hearing the Our Father in Latin on Sundays didn't make me any less able to say the prayer in english when not at Mass.

I don't think there is any serious push to return to the Latin Mass at all. I think people wish that it was more available.In NYC itself, one of the largest Catholic archdiocese in the US, there is literally only one celebration of the Mass in Latin on Sundays, in a somewhat modernistic church, and they get a full house.

I don't like the trend in Catholic churches towards building them like Protestant churches either. They seem barren to me and do not make me feel closer to God because there is nothing in the church to look at. I like side altars and alcoves with votive candles.

PS I hated the addition to the Mass of offering your pew mate the 'sign of peace'. I'm not keen on touching strangers lol.

[hedgehog]

6. I did attend the Latin Mass as a child and I can still translate

the responses. I didn't really see any harm in the Latin Mass until very recently. Now I see it as part of a push to take the entire Church back to a mythical time before Vatican II. The vernacular Mass forces us to face the Body of Christ, even that "stranger" who is next to us at the sign of Peace. It's a lot easier to worship a God hidden behind ritual and language than it is to look at your neighbor and see God.

[DemBones DemBones]

7. I seriously doubt that the average Catholic thinks about

the stranger next to them at Mass as God just because of exchanging a sign of peace or even holding hands during the Paternoster. These are Protestant practices brought into the Mass, as is the general lack of respect for the presence of Jesus in the tabernacle. Surveys show that many practicing Catholics no longer understand or believe in transubstantiation, so lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament follows from that decline in proper catechesis, which is a result of Vatican II -- but less a result of the changes actually mandated by Vatican II than of the confusion they engendered.

People who understood their Catholic faith pre-Vatican II were confused by the many changes and post-Vatican II catechesis seems to have been shoddy and an odd blend of Protestant and Catholic belief. One year when I was on my parish RCIA "team," we had to work with a young seminarian, a post-Vatican II Catholic, who opposed any discussion of the Rosary in class but once told the class members that the Church says that anything your conscience tells you is OK actually is OK. :wow:

I was raised Protestant and know the failings of Protestantism; I don't want the Roman Catholic Church to fall into the same decline, where church becomes for most just a place to show off nice clothes and socialize, something devoid of meaning. We HAVE lost some of what Catholicism had before Vatican II and I don't think we've gained more than we lost.

The Latin Mass gave the Church a unity worldwide that is less complete when the liturgy is in a different language everywhere. As has been mentioned, travellers can't fully participate in Mass unless they find a church that uses the language they speak. We all muddle along but it was surely easier pre-Vatican II.

Some things have been lost in the translation, too. The pre-Communion prayer we said in Latin literally translates "I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and my soul shall be healed" but in Novus Ordo we say "and I shall be healed." There is a significant difference in meaning between "my soul shall be healed" and "I shall be healed." Why the change? And what other subtle changes in meaning were made?

I'm not, BTW, arguing for a return to Latin as the only option. I don't attend a Latin Mass now and haven't since the sixties. But I would certainly attend a Latin Mass occasionally if it didn't mean an hour and a half drive to get there.

[Princess Turandot]

9. Your point abt the 'universality' of the Latin mass is interesting..

I never thought about how odd it would be to attend Mass said in a language to which I had no connection, say Japanese or an African language!

I've never seen people hold hands while praying the Our Father but I have seen people do the up-turned palm thing, including sisters. It makes me feel uneasy, almost as if I'm watching a telecast of a service by a televangelist. And I can't help but think that that is why some Catholics now do it. It looks sort of 'gimmicky' to me.

[Princess Turandot]

8. well, shaking hands with the guy in a pew next to me doesn't make..

me feel closer to God. How I treat other people is what matters. I don't 'see God' in every person I pass. It doesn't mean that they are not created by God or carry his blessings. The 'sign of peace' to me is a stunt which disrupts the flow of the Mass, even in English.

Did you mean to say a mystical time before Vatican II rather than mythical? The Catholic faith & Christianity in general is built upon events steeped in mystery. Most religions do in their own way.

[tjwmason]

10. I personally think that 'the peace' has become utterly trivialised.

This was exemplified at Pope John Paul's funeral when Prince Charles and Robert Mugabe shook hands, but is similarly shown at every parish when people unthinkingly turn to their neighbour.

It is supposed to be a solemn demonstration of the mutual love and peace within the Church, but is treated in the same way as meeting with business colleagues at the beginning of a meeting.

[hedgehog]

11. I meant "mythical"

as in the myth that everything was perfect before Vatican II.

Also, why should the Mass be in Latin for the foreign traveler rather than in the local language for everyone else? My husband attended Mass in Korea and found it a wonderful experience. Despite his limited command of the language, he had no problems following along. He especially enjoyed the Sign of Peace which according to local custom there is a bow to your neighbor. For us, the universality of the Church is illustrated by the accommodation to local custom, not the imposition of lock step from above.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. The use of Latin wasn't for the traveler but for everyone:

one Church, one language.

It did make the experience of Mass in another country more familiar. I've been to Mass in Italy and could follow along with the Italian liturgy; no doubt most of us know the liturgy well enough to follow it, but it's nice to be able to participate and you have to speak a language pretty well to keep up with the native speakers on the prayers.