Why do some people refuse to call us Christians?

[YOY]

There are some folks (on both sides of the fence) who seem to think that we are not Christians. Maybe the big flipping crucifixes might be a tip-off to them or the constant references to Jesus.

Why are so many people in this country so set against the idea that we are Christians? Just not the snake-handling Jerry Falwell loving kind!

[shrike]

1. Long-time prejudice against Catholics

I grew up with it. Very small, redneck town. We were "them Catholics," and that was the nice term. I used to joke that we were the n****ers of the region. (I really hate that word and won't ever use it. And I'm white.)

Now the church has brought a lot of hatred on itself: we can start with the inquisition in that matter. But the prejudice against Catholics is still wide and deep -- don't forget that the Klan took on Jews and Catholics as well as blacks.

I have to laugh when certain people I know (as well as people on this board) want me to take on the Christian right "because I am Christian and we must police our own." They don't get it; I am one of the infidels. I'd be on the boxcars with them, along with the Arabs and Adventists.

[YOY]

2. We've got our own fundies

I call Catholic Fundies the ultimate hypocrites...I consider that 'policing my own.'

You explain much of what I already know. They don't consider us Christians. It's the exact 'Why' that I'm searching for. The pope and hierarchy of the church? Persecution of protestants? Some core value we hold? The trinity?

[shrike]

3. Catholic fundies are a little different

I'm talking about the Jerry Falwell types who barely see us as human. They're going to laugh in my face if I even THINK about policing them.

Well, America does have a Puritan heritage, and from what I remember of history Puritans were quite suspicious of the church -- for good reason, perhaps. But don't forget, these were "plain" people who disliked ceremony, so-called magic, and they probably hated the incense, the mass, the mystery, the mysticism, from the get-go.

Although ultimately the reasons are probably quite complex. Don't forget, Catholics were also a minority in this country for years. Many were also Irish, and Italian, and therefore "different." (And poor; the ruling elite, the privileged, were mostly protestant.) Anything different is dangerous, no matter what the majority of the moment may be. Again, Catholicism had a bit more pageantry and pomp -- or at least it used to -- then the protestant services, and the mass was said in Latin, and the church leader was a guy all the way over in Italy, so everyone else looked at us and said, "Who the hell are these people?"

Plus, Catholics also had their own communities, and misconceptions grow up around people who keep to themselves -- well, anyway, that's my two cents. Hope it helps.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Because they have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics

and because Catholics often take positions that are anathema to Republican-influenced fundamentalists, such as support for labor and the environment and opposition to the Iraq War.

[CBHagman]

5. With some, it comes down to the born-again experience.

Back in the 1970s and Charismatic Renewal, I spent a lot of time at prayer meetings and also with Baptists and various other evangelical Christians. I ran into at least one case of a Baptist youth minister (a very likeable guy, by the way) who misunderstood Catholic beliefs and actually thought the church taught that Mary was born of a virgin (Sigh. Yet another misinterpretation of the Immaculate Conception). On edit: A good many Catholics and even some scholars confuse the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception.

The problems were, for at least some of these Christians, is that Catholics practice infant baptism and do not emphasize the conversion experience, meaning the act of being born again, of professing Christ as your personal savior.

As a Lutheran friend of mine pointed out in high school, anyone who goes through confirmation usually has had a chance to look at his or her beliefs and truly profess Christ.

Another friend in high school, a Baptist (who lived in a town with no Catholic Church at all) explained Catholics to her mother thusly: "They just emphasize works more than we do, Mama."

And I should also add that the very first place I ever heard the Gospel of John passage on being born again was at Sunday Mass. I remember thinking: Gee, I'd better make sure I'm born again.

And from what little I've read of the documents of Vatican II (admittedly very little :blush:), the church emphasizes that we are saved through God's mercy and forgiveness.

The Baptists I knew felt that public profession of faith, with a full immersion baptism, was a necessary part of the believer's walk with God. That said, given that at parochial school we were more or less told that God would forgive us if we turned to Him, even at the moment of death, that sort of suggests the Baptists have their own little set of works.

But the brownie-point Christianity business of Catholicism drives me completely round the bend. I tuned in to Mother Angelica one night, and she said that the reason people didn't attend Stations of the Cross and Benediction enough was because they weren't told about HELL enough! And I thought the nuns at my school were scary.

By the way, when my boss thought I was out of earshot, she observed one day that Catholics weren't really Christian. I was tempted to tell her that the joke was on her and I did believe in salvation through grace. But maybe I should save such relevations for the office Christmas party or something. :evilgrin:

On edit: One of my big frustrations at DU is the abandon with which snap judgments are made about various beliefs, whether Catholic or otherwise. That "fundy" label is used pretty promiscuously. I thought liberals were supposed to have inquiring minds and a big tent!

[YOY]

8. Dunno about that...but I see it as well

My problem with DU is the Atheists and Agnostics are put together. As someone who has one foot in Catholocism and one in Agnosticism I thought I might find some kindred souls there. Some of them are nice folks but there are three or four in there (atheists not agnostics) that chase out anyone who doesn't dare think like them...should e called the Atheist board. Agnostics aren't allowed.

[CBHagman]

9. There are many ways to be rigid.

Really, I think one form of rigidity is like another. The avowed atheist may have a good deal in common with the churchgoer who regards the people at denomination X, Y, or Z as not really Christian. The things people post!!!

I would like to think DU is full of people who are searchers and pilgrims of one sort or another.

[YOY]

10. but try explaining that to them

I said something very similar to one of the three or four over there that really have the rigidity problem and :nuke: : Attack of the rabid fanatic who want to repeat their little version of the Apostles Creed in nihilist form!

I tried to throw the 'shadow of a doubt' or a 'just how can you be sure' and that sure brought up an onslaught of personal attacks. It was followed up with a "STOP PERSECUITING MY BLELIEFS!" That person was spouting nasty things about other folks who have a different view on life.

I'm sure there are plenty of searchers here and most of us are open-minded but there are a few of the LW versions of fundies here as well.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

6. I'd rather be called a catholic than a christian...

When a lot of people here think Christians, they think of the idiot fundamentalists like Bush and I don't want to be lumped in to that catagory. Catholics get a rap for being anti choice, but I think their charity work speaks for itself. But I guess I understand where you're coming from.
Duckie

[regnaD kciN]

7. Perhaps, but it cuts both ways...

I've always been annoyed by the tendency of certain Roman Catholics to describe one's denominational affiliation as "one's religion." In other words, they wnat to classify non-Roman Christians as belonging to the "Episcopalian religion," or the "Lutheran religion," or the "Baptist religion." I've always felt that the connotation was that, if you're not Roman Catholic, you're not really a Christian, but some other religion entirely.

Not much different from the fundies who insist that Catholicism is a separate religion, something other than "true" Christianity.

Of course, there was also the story from one of my film teachers (a man who was very anti-religion). When his first child was born, it was at a Roman Catholic hospital. The nurse doing the checking-in asked him "what religion" he and his wife belonged to. "We're atheists" was his reply. He then watched with some shock as the nurse wrote in "Protestant" on the appropriate line. :eyes: