Pope Benedict - not the hardline horror that some of us feared.

[Matilda]

Sydney paper, the Sydney Morning Herald, carried a story about Pope Benedict on Saturday, in which
the authors painted a portrait of a man who is just possibly rather more liberal in reality than
his predecessor, while not being afraid to put a strong traditional Catholic view across to the
faithful.

"...when Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, there was 'extreme apprehension and even a bit of
panic' among liberal Catholics, says John Wilkins, the former editor of The Tablet newspaper, the
leading voice of the Catholic left.

"As Pope Benedict, he smiles in every picture. He consults: last week he convened a meeting of the
world's cardinals in Rome just to hear their concerns. He even had a long lunch with dissident
Swiss theologian Hans Kung, whose denials of the doctrine of papal infallibility led the Vatican
to strip him of his right to teach Catholic theology in 1979.

"Supporters say Ratzinger was always like this: a sensitive, gracious man whose perceived harshness
came from his position as doctrinal prefect, not his nature. It seems too simple an explanation,
yet his human side has emerged. He carries a card that permits use of his organs after death,
making him the first pope to be a registered organ donor. Having once decried the 'barrenness of
technology', he now owns a papal ipod, on which he listens to Vatican Radio and his beloved Mozart."


http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/a-blessing-in-disguise/2006/03/31/1143441332067.html


A man who loves cats and Mozart can't be too bad.

[shrike]

1. I have breathed a sigh of relief: re Pope Benedict

Not nearly as conservative as I'd feared. So far, so -- decent: I won't go as far as to say 'good.'

[hedgehog]

2. On the other hand,

the fancy shoes and return to medieval clothing have not made a good impression.

[shrike]

4. Yeah, the duds are not helping, are they? n/t/

[hedgehog]

6. Thinking it over, I'm really starting to wonder

Is this a case of someone who has worked all his life to get to a post, only to be too feeble to do anything with it once he arrives? Benedict seems to be more concerned with restoring the outward trappings that he half remembers from his childhood than with anything else. It's as if he thinks if all the pageantry is brought back, everything else will fall back into place the way he remembers it being. (That's not necessarily the way it was, by the way.)

[CBHagman]

3. Interestingly...

...it's a JEWISH friend of mine who has been the most open-minded regarding Benedict, as far as the people in my circle of friends are concerned. This particular friend is very well versed in what goes on in the Catholic Church and was very taken with Benedict's stances on war in particular.

At any rate, as always, the important thing is to watch and listen.

[hedgehog]

5. But we've lost a year, haven't we?

We're still facing the same problems and we haven't done a thing.

[Matilda]

8. Well, he hasn't been able to bring peace to the Middle East.

I'm greatly relieved that at least there's no sign of any infallible pronouncements regarding
birth control or female ordination, which I rather feared may happen.

From what I've read, it seems that he is very much an intellectual, and very concerned with getting
things right from a doctrinal point of view. He doesn't appear to be as subjective as John Paul
was - he's motivated not by his own emotions, but what he thinks is right and ethical. So on the
one hand, he's condemned scientific experiments on animals, but if he thinks that female ordination
is inherently wrong, he'll come out against that too, and the same for birth control. It would
depend entirely on how he reads the scriptures and earlier Church writings; not on what people want,
nor how he feels about it.

I've looked at his horoscope, for which I would be in trouble with the Church, but I do think there's
a genuine reformer there, but tempered by extreme caution. He would explore new ideas, but would
proceed carefully with an awareness of all possible repercussions on any issue, so I wouldn't expect
to see anything that would either be revolutionary or too reactionary; certainly not in a hurry
anyway.

I can also see the charm - Moon in Libra in the 7th house - that surprised me, but yes, I think he
could charm the birds off the trees if he wanted.

[hedgehog]

9. Well, the priests we have aren't getting any younger

and I don't see legions of young men lining up for a life time of celibate Holy Orders.

[Matilda]

12. No they're not, and Benedict has acknowledged that there will be

changes ahead, although I don't think he had married clergy in mind when he said that.

I hope that changes will be made, but there are two things to consider:

First, such a drastic change in Catholic thinking, even suppose Benedict has it in his mind right
now, will take years to find acceptance in many quarters. Not just the obvious like the Vatican
itself and to older people, but to a broad section of the laity in countries that are generally
more conservative than we are - Poland leaps to mind, but also possibly Latin America, Asia and
Africa. As much as many would like, he can't just sign a decree and make it a fact - the truth
is that it would likely cause a split in the Church not unlike that of gay ordination in the
Anglican and Episcopal churches, unless people had a lot of time - perhaps years - to discuss all
the ramifications beforehand.

Second, there are purely practical considerations. Catholic priests are virtually on call 24 hours
a day - if someone's in danger of dying in the night, they want a priest now, not at 9.0 a.m.
tomorrow. This definitely would put a strain on families - in choosing priests who are married
you also need to be sure they have good support from their spouses. Not all modern women want to
play second fiddle, but I think that Catholics would expect the wife of a priest not to have a
career outside parish duties. I know the Anglicans frown on working wives, and that's tough on
a modern, educated woman.

You also have to consider that parishes would have to support not only the priest but a wife and
two, three, or more children. In these times of dwindling parish attendances, where is the money
going to come from? It's a serious question that doesn't have an obvious answer.

[Joe Chi Minh]

14. I think those problems might well be mitigated by a greater

number of recruits to the priesthood, and much larger congregations.

[hedgehog]

7. I had an odd thought

Some have suggested that Benedict was the guiding hand behind most of John Paul II' official acts and statements in his later years. John Paul would make a welcoming gesture to a non-Christian leader one day and Benedict (Ratzinger) would issue a statement over John Paul's signature the next day indicating that the Church was the only path to salvation etc. So how do we know that Benedict's really writing his encyclicals? Maybe someone else is editing them while he is checking out his wardrobe?

[JohnKleeb]

10. I still see him refered to as a nazi in GD

Even though that's been proven not true and these people know it. He has been a pleasant surprise, I don't have as much personal admiration for him as I did John Paul II but perhaps that is beacause John Paul II was such a unique and special pope, one of kind and all that. I must admit I haven't been paying much attention however I did hear that the Vatican Newspaper came out and said that Intelligent Design was not science and I found that impressive.

[hedgehog]

11. The problem with too many people on GD is that they have

a closed mind on anything to to do with Catholicism. Everything they say sounds like a broken record. No matter the topic, their response is going to be a reference to pedophile priests or a bad experience they or someone they knew had thirty years ago. References to the Inquisition and or Galileo are optional. It's impossible to have a discussion with these people because they have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

[JohnKleeb]

19. Very true

No belief system whether it be religious or political is without sin. Even Buddism which I admire a lot has its bad past like that cult in Japan that gassed the subway in Toyko.

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. Re Benedict's perception concerning the "barrenness of

techonolgy", he seems to keep impeccable scientific company.

Einstein once remarked:

"I believe that the horrifying deterioration in the ethical conduct of people today stems from the mechanization and dehumanization of our lives - the disastrous by-product of the scientific and technical mentality. Nostra culpa. Man grows cold faster than the planet he inhabits." I've made that my tagline.

Other remarks Einstein made on the same theme were:

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal."

Oh sorry, he was an atheist, our atheist friends tell us!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

16. I enjoy watching neo-pagans prove how good paganism is

by adopting Christian virtues such as working in food kitchens without admitting that these are indeed Christian virtues.

[demosincebirth]

18. I've been votunteering at St Vincent de Paul

homeless shelter and free dinning room for years, and I can truly say...I have never met an atheist there. I've met christians of other denominations and a few of different faith, but no atheists.

It might be a (very) interesting subject to discuss on one of the DU groups.

[Matilda]

20. I do know of some people who may be nominally Christian,

but who don't go to any church or practise in any way who do support some of our local charitable
kitchens catering to the poor. There is one man in particular, Rev. Crews (Uniting Church) who
has a number of backers who are not affiliated, and also Fr. Chris Riley who has a program dedicated
to getting "Youth off the Streets". They've become popular causes, and it's a bit of an "in" thing
to do, but I guess the important thing is that they do get help, regardless of what the motives are.

I have also noticed that none of the fundie churches I know of have any programs in place to cater
for the homeless or needy - it's one of the things I don't like about them. They're dedicated to
making money, but they don't seem to spread it around. I hope I'm not sounding too biased, but
I just don't see it.

[demosincebirth]

21. You are not sounding biased. Its true what you just said,

I've seen a couple of small dinning rooms run by a christian fundamentalist group, but you do have to listen to a sermon before they let you eat.

[readmoreoften]

27. I think that is a little rude and bigoted.

I believe that the religious left does wonderful things, and the energy that inspires giving, religious people is palpable when amongst them. But when non-Christians devote themselves to justice and compassion they are not "adopting" Christian virtues. Christianity didn't invent good works.

[demosincebirth]

28. Humans have done "good works" before Christ, but

Jesus was the one who made them (Sermon on the Mount)the center pieces of our religion

[readmoreoften]

29. I understand that, but the post is talking about other religions.

Just because good works are the center of Catholicism and other Christian religions (certainly not a good portion of the faith-not-works fundamentalist crowd) does not mean that Christianity invented the concept of social justice. That's a big claim. And clearly much of the basis for Jesus' teachings on social justice comes from Judaism, which has deep-rooted beliefs on the issue as well.

You can't just say that when other religions behave ethically or charitably that they are "adopting" the practices of your own religion without coming off-- and in my opinion, actually being-- chauvenistic.

[demosincebirth]

30. I understand her/his point.

Also, through my experience at volunteering at many St Vincent de Paul free dinning rooms for years, I have never met any Atheists or "Pagans" helping out or volunteering. They only seem to pop up every now and then to decry all the inequities of the RCC and other well meaning Christians - always over looking all of the good the Catholic Church has done and is doing though out the world.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. Absolutely! What could be more telling!

Some humanists?

[JohnKleeb]

22. I think a lot of the more militant athiests like to ignore

the things people do because of faith and religion. I have to say from watching my father become more spirtual that spirtuality and religion is a fine thing.

[demosincebirth]

23. I think atheism also means less responsibilities.

[JohnKleeb]

24. Because of the lack of a fear of hell orr something like that

Yeah I think you may have a point. I wish people would consider the many wonderful things that were done in the name of religion, religion like all things is flawed with some good and some bad. It was after all people of faith that campaigned hard for the abolition of slavery here, the Catholic Church here in America has been strongly pro labor, etc. Is the church perfect? no it's not but religion isn't perfect nor should it be thought to be. You know what prayer always gets me going is that prayer of St. Francis.

[demosincebirth]

25. The prayer of St. Francis...ahhh, thats my favorite.

It touches all bases.

[JohnKleeb]

26. Yeah its mine too

Really moves me every single time I hear it because it's powerful emotionally. I believe its the 11th step prayer for AA as well.

[CBHagman]

31. I've got to insert a point here, though.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with the notion that agnostics and atheists are somehow inherently less motivated to follow a moral code than are Christians, especially when I see evidence to the contrary. So-called believers of various faiths have done and continue to do horrific things in the name of serving God or some code of justice, or perhaps even their own desires.

I can make no sweeping generalizations about believers or non-believers, as I haven't done studies of, say, their respective participation in volunteer activities, giving to charity, etc. But the writer Eda LeShan was an agnostic, and I found a great deal to admire in her humanity, tolerance, common sense, and decency.

What I've recently heard from at least one Jewish thinker is that the important thing is to do the right thing, on principle, regardless of whether there's a reward or approval in the offing. I suspect many people, regardless of their beliefs, choose that way of living. If I were to lose my faith completely, I don't think my outward behavior would really change.