Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Tsunami, God, and the Problem of Suffering

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Religion & Spirituality » Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group Donate to DU
 
Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-04 10:12 PM
Original message
The Tsunami, God, and the Problem of Suffering
Edited on Mon Dec-27-04 10:23 PM by Stunster
I say problem of suffering, rather than problem of evil, because the tsunami is not guilty of moral evil. It can perhaps be called a natural evil. But in reality it's really just a natural event--a disaster to be sure--that causes great suffering.

We Catholics believe that God is perfectly loving and good, so how could God allow this to happen---and indeed, all the other natural disasters that occur? And what about illness, pain, and horrifying diseases?

I suspect that this is *the* major reason why people don't believe in God. They hear all this talk about God's goodness and love for humanity, and they see what happens to innocent people by the millions--not to mention innocent animals---all around the world, in every age and place.

I don't think it does any good to just avoid the question.

The traditional Catholic answer---the one that I grew up with---is that 'it is a mystery'. True, but tell me something I don't know, for pete's sake!

At any rate, I was thinking about this tsunami disaster, and I had the following thoughts...

1. If I was a member of a superior race of space aliens, who lived in a paradise of a solar system, where life was wonderfully long and pain-free, where there was no moral evil, and where every good and beautiful thing was available via computer-controlled means; and I had the opportunity to take human beings away from this 'vale of tears' we call the Earth, with all its toil and strife of life, wouldn't I do so, even at the cost of some transitory pain and suffering? Well, maybe not right away---I'd want those humans to fulfil a good portion of their potential---but yes, eventually, I think I would do so. I'd look at those poor fishermen, those poor sewing women, those children who are struggling just to eat, and I'd say to myself, "Let me reconfigure their bodies using the inter-galactic bio-transporter---yes, I know it's painful---and bring them here, to this wonderful solar system of ours. Those poor folks--they deserve a better life than the one they've got." Well, maybe God thinks, "Let me bring those folks to heaven, and away from that vale of tears. Let this tsunami/earthquake/flood/cancer/plane crash/car accident be their final, very last suffering. They've endured enough." What looks like sadism to us may actually be an act of great compassion.

2. From a scientific point of view, the tsunami was caused ultimately by the laws of physics. Yes, those very same laws of physics that allow us to exist and enjoy anything in the first place! Without them, there'd be no human life at all.

3. The laws of physics have to be practically universal in order for there to be rational agents. If events were not governed by law-like regularity, rational expectations would not be possible. So, if God wishes to create not only all the orders of angelic beings, but also rational agents who are physical beings, then God has to instantiate laws that operate with almost universal force. Why doesn't God step in to miraculously save lives? Because if God did so frequently, or quite commonly, rational expectations with regard to the physical world would be impossible, and hence rational agency itself would be impossible. Miracles, by definition, must be rare events. 'Common miracles', at least in any physical sense, is a contradiction in terms.

4. Most people, despite all the suffering of the world, are glad that they exist. Suicide, or even a desire for non-being, is a rarity. The vast majority of the human race is glad, upon reflection, that they exist, even knowing all the suffering and tragedy to which human flesh is heir. Why, many people even procreate, knowing what potential suffering there may be for their offspring. Do we, most of us, think that procreation is a cruel, sadistic act? I don't think so. Most of us think that procreating and parenting are very loving things to do, even though we know our children are going to experience some suffering.

5. It's not as if God kept aloof from all of this. No, what Christmas means, what Christianity means, is that God decided that he would not spare his own divine nature from being united with human nature, to the point of death----death by crucifixion.

6. What is the atheistic alternative? It says that in a fundamental ontological sense, this tsunami is no different in essence from, say, a meteor striking a moon of Jupiter. It's just a bunch of atoms moving about--matter in motion. But who really thinks this describes the reality and truth of this tsunami disaster? No, we see it as different from the meteor that strikes the moon of Jupiter precisely because it's not just matter in motion. It is that, but it's also how it affects many possessors of rational consciousness, a fact that immediately suggests that materialism must be wrong in some basic and key way, because there's this pesky additional fact, beyond mere matter in motion, of rational consciousness being subject to a dramatic impact. We are consequently moved to pity by the suffering---we experience compassion. We feel a moral duty to alleviate the suffering. Compassion and moral duty---experiences which are poorly accounted for on the terms of atheistic materialism. I mean, if we are essentially just the same stuff that the rest of the material universe is, how could such things as compassion and moral duty even arise? So if the tsunami disaster raises questions about belief in a loving God, its immediate emotional and moral consequences raise even even more difficult questions for atheistic materialism.

8. Was it the tsunami's fault that so many people died? In an important sense, I don't think so. If the Indian Ocean had a tsunami warning system as does the Pacific Ocean, the death toll would have been vastly smaller. Indeed, it may be that no-one would have been killed, had such a system been in place. Human laziness and neglect contributed greatly to this disaster, as did poverty and social injustice. Had the tsunami been heading for, say, Los Angeles, the early warning system used in the Pacific, the superior stability of Californian building structures, and perhaps a greater sense of caring and respect for the value of our citizens' life than was shown by some Asian governments, would probably have resulted in far fewer, if any fatalities. In an important sense, this colossal death toll was caused by human carelessness.

9. Is it God's fault if you die because you went for a space-walk but forgot to put your space-helmet on, or if you put your head inside the jaws of a shark or a crocodile, or if you try to take a corner while speeding at 125mph? God gives us intelligence so that we can deal compassionately and cleverly with the challenges nature will throw at us. God has given us the freedom and autonomy to use that intelligence, as best we can, in every age and place. We have become better, and have grown mightily---intellectually, morally, and spiritually---precisely because we've been given those challenges. But if we don't learn from our mistakes, then shame on us, not God.

10. Eventually, no matter how well we cope with physical challenges, we will all succumb to nature and die, because we are finite, physical beings, and our intelligence is limited. But that is no reason to blame God, if there awaits us an even greater paradise than the one to which a space alien might compassionately wish to bring us, even at the cost of some transitory suffering. If Christianity is true, then leaving this vale of tears, however that happens, may be the most loving 'act of God' there is.


Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-04 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting thoughts. I can appreciate that people

killed by the tsunami may be better off where they are now, but I think you have to have some belief that there may be something better after this life in order to look at it that way.

I don't blame God for things that happen because I don't think God causes events like earthquakes or hurricanes, while human-caused events are a result of our having free will. I think it's proper to pray and ask God for protection, healing, whatever we need, but not to blame Him if we don't get the results we prayed for. We all have to die eventually and maybe God does choose the time for each of us to die, based on things we don't understand.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think that God created Earth as well as the rest of the known and
unknown Universe to sort of run itself, in terms of physical events.
I think that 'Nature' is responsible, not as a mystical being but as the mechanism which tries to keep our planet in some form of ecological balance.An example of what I mean is the fact that primates breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide, which in turn supports plant life which produces more oxygen.I don't think that God personally directs everyones' respiratory system!

Every few hundred years to date, since the Middle Ages, millions of people have died, first from bubonic plague and then by various forms of influenza.Did that occur at God's direction? I don't believe so. Did Louis Pasteur discover the germ theory and microbial agents as the source of many infections as an inspiration from God?
His abilities may have been God-given, but he needed to follow a path which ultimately led him to become a scientist.

When you think about the number of new life forms which have appeared in the 20th century, the viruses such as HIV, Ebola and now
the more deadly flu viruses appearing in China, I personally believe that that is 'Nature' fighting back against more advanced life, because medicine and a variety of other practices have in a way artificially caused a great extension of our life-spans and a population which would be much smaller if medicine never existed.Science basically obliterated one of the most deadly life-forms at all, the small pox virus, which cleared out many a population before its vaccine was invented.

I don't think disasters such as the earthquake triggering the tsunamis fall into the category that HIV et all falls into. It's just nature's way of regulating our planet.

That is not to say that God could not intervene in something related to Nature, but I think that would be something very rare, and probably on the positive side.

(PS I hope this doesn't give the impression that I'm a closet Wiccan lol.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. What is God up to?
I think God is grieving with those who lost loved ones, and welcoming the loved ones home to heaven. As he hung, suffering and dying on the Cross, he told a suffering, dying man, "Today, you will be with me in paradise..."

Meantime the physics that makes us and the physics that drowns us is one and the same physics. Tamper with the drowning part, and we wouldn't be here to drown anyway. We are what we are (DNA); water is what it is (H2O). Given these facts, then human beings will drown in certain circumstances.

But how can God let it happen---that's the question people ask. How can God be loving and good and let this stuff happen? Why doesn't God save us?

Well, why doesn't he come down from the cross? That's what people demanded to know at Golgotha.

Of course, the very grieving that people do is the Spirit of God inside them, loving their dead children. For God is not remote. God is within us. God is in our grief, because grief is an expression of love. God is love, the very love with which we love one another. Hence God is in our anger at God, because that too is an expression of love for those lost and harmed. God himself experienced what it's like to feel abandoned by God... "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

God is everywhere--in the hearts of the grieving and the angry and the inconsolable, all of which is an expression of God's own essence--namely, love. God is in heaven too, welcoming and healing.

God is the God of the living--and to God, all are alive.

"Oh death, where is thy sting? Where is thy victory?" Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus--not anguish, not death, not anything at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tourism industry
That's why they didn't issue a warning. That has nothing to do with Asians valuing life less. In fact, until the western tourist and corporate profits entered the region, the locals didn't live near the ocean. They also didn't cut down the mangroves to make shrimp beds to feed the western world. You want to blame somebody, at least blame the right people for the right reasons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You bring up an interesting point.
The vast majority of pain and suffering in this world is caused by either the actions or the inactions of human beings. Wars are caused by humans, famine is caused by gluttony of humans, and poverty is caused by the greed of humans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. The work of creation isn't finished: Genesis merely says ...
... the Creator rested, not that acts of creation ceased.

And the creation stories in Genesis clearly state that humans were created in the image of the Creator.

So if we are unhappy with the creation -- then perhaps we should blame ourselves and get to work on our own contributions to it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't believe God causes pain...
but I believe He gives us the means to cope with it. He gave us the brains to help prevent disasters like this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Dec 22nd 2024, 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Religion & Spirituality » Catholic and Orthodox Christian Group Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC