On CNN this afternoon, I heard that the Pope is bringing back...

[cspanlovr]

...The Latin Mass. Anyone else hear this?

[rug]

1. Non mihi.

[tjwmason]

2. There are rumours.

Such rumours flow around the traditionalist movement every few months with an astonishing regularity...on the otherhand, these made it into The Times and then the rest of the British press, and now C.N.N. - so perhaps there's more behind them than before.

The suggestion is that there would be a "universal indult" - in other words that every Priest would have the right to offer the old Latin Mass, unless otherwise prevented. In reality it would make no difference at all to 99% of Priests and parishes.

At the moment there is the indult of Ecclesia Dei adflicta (I think I got the spelling wrong there), whereby Bishops can give permission for the old Mass to groups who want it and they are encouraged to provide this on a "wide and generous basis" - in some cases this means whole parishes which are entirely old-rite, with Mass sometimes Vespers, Baptisms, Confirmations...done in the old way. In many Dioceses though no permission has been given at all. Bishops would still be able to prevent the old-Mass in their parish churches if they wanted to, and parishes would still have to offer the new-Mass for the majority who attend it.

[cspanlovr]

3. Thanks for the info. I guess I won't buy that stock in the Missal company.

Tee hee. :hi:

[AngryOldDem]

4. Please elaborate.

I always thought that he was going to make the Latin Mass more available for those who wish to attend it, nothing more.

[demosincebirth]

5. The Pope is going to allow more use of the Latin Mass

[Matilda]

6. Seems that it's true,

there will be greater latitude given to churches that want to have the Tridentine Mass.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/12/AR2006101201563.html


I think if they had it in our parish, a lot of people would go out of sentiment or curiosity, but
when they remember that it will take a full hour if it's done properly, and that the people are
observers more than participants, attendance would drop off.

I'm old enough to remember the early days of Vatican II, when the new forms were just coming in,
and there were many things I liked when the Mass was done well (it wasn't always). But I've got
used to the more open and warmer atmosphere of the new Mass, and I like the laity participating to
a greater degree. I don't think I'd want to go back to the old ways.

The good thing about the Mass in Latin is that you can go anywhere in the world and take part,
and the language is beautiful, but the new Mass can be said in Latin anyway; it's not necessary
to go back to the Tridentine Mass to have Latin.

[CBHagman]

7. Also, there are different forms of Latin masses.

I attended a Latin mass on Sunday, but apparently it's a translation of the current mass. Moreover, the prayers of the faithful, the readings, the responsorial psalm and most hymns, the announcements, and the homily were all presented in English. Booklets with the Latin text and translations were provided to the congregation, so everyone can follow and participate, with a little concentration.

On the other hand, several years back I attended a Tridentine mass in another church in the same diocese, and I felt as though I was just watching "a priest say his prayers," as my brother used to describe it. I don't recall much of anything for the congregation to do aside from watch and wait.

On edit: See also these entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Mass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass

[tjwmason]

8. Latin is still the official language of the Western Church

The new order of Mass was written in Latin, and that's the definitive form. The English, French, Spanish &c.&c.&c. versions are translations of that.

Celebrations of the new order in Latin are rare, but not unknown - I've been to several at the Brompton Oratory, their main Sunday Mass is nearly all in Latin, with full-blown ritual and stunning music.

[chieftain]

9. A Latin Mass was on the radio last week as I was driving and

it brought back memories of Sunday's in church without a clue of what was being said. Endless bouts of standing, kneeling, sitting (sometimes with half of my ass on the bench until my mother swatted me) and chest thumping were no substitute for spiritual teaching. My exposure to my religion as a child was limited to inexplicable ritual, lives of the Saints, rote recitation of the Baltimore Catechism and Sabbath pleas for contributions to the building fund. With Vatican 2 and the switch to the vernacular, my eyes were opened to the beauty, majesty and relevance of the Mass. I pray that conservatives do not work to take that away from us.

[Matilda]

10. I think the old Mass had plenty of beauty and majesty,

in the liturgy, the music, the pageantry of the ritual. What the Novus Ordo Mass gives us is a
sense of community. Both are relevant, depending perhaps on what people want and need from the
Mass, and how it is presented. In the early days of Vatican II, there was a period when one mass
every Sunday had to be the Tridentine, and all others in the vernacular - that was pretty good,
because you could choose which to attend.

There is much discussion currently on whether to reinstate the priest facing east, away from the
congregation. The reason this was always done, from the early days of the church, was so that
priest and people together faced east, the direction from which it is believed Christ will come
when he returns. The idea is that it increases the sacrificial nature of the Mass, rather than the
communal nature. That would be my main objection - it used to feel that the priest was set apart
from the rest of us, and as most of his prayers were silent and you couldn't see his face, it was
as if he was up there doing his own little prayer session and we were left wondering just what was
happening. There's a strong move apparently, backed by Pope Benedict, to return to having the
priest face away from the people, and I think it would be a pity. But apparently Vatican II never
did decree that the priest should face the people, it simply gave that possibilility when it ordered
that altars should be moved away from the back wall and placed in the centre of the sanctuary.

I don't think these days that all churches are built facing east/west anyway, which would pose a
bit of a dilemma if they wanted to get it absolutely right. It does look though as if there is a
move to roll back at least some of the changes of Vatican II - there is room for improvement, I
think, but I'd hate to see any move to reduce the participation of the laity, which to my mind seems
to be more in line with the teachings of Christ than the old "us and them" mentality.

[tjwmason]

11. The new Mass isn't about to be taken away.

The best estimate I've heard is that there are about a million people world-wide who are traditionalists (those who want the old Mass); out of a billion Catholics, they're not about to take control.

The vast majority of conservatives aren't interested in the old Mass.

All that would happen is that those who want the old Mass can have it more easily.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. I really want to be able to attend

a Traditional Latin Mass -- not the Novus Ordo in Latin, but the Latin Mass as it was said for hundreds of years.

I am not sure what Benedict XVI will do, but as long as bishops can say "not in my diocese," it won't mean much no matter what he does. Priests are no longer trained in Latin, either, and many will resist the training, I'm afraid. My diocese requires all priests to learn Spanish, but Latin, which is still used at the Vatican and is still the official language of the Church, is not required.

Vatican II took away much of the Pope's authority by giving bishops more authority. That was a bad move because it, among other acts of the council, damaged the universality of the Church.

[Matilda]

13. I'd also be interested in attending a Tridentine Mass.

We have one church that I know of in Sydney that follows the old rites, and I know it's name and
the suburb, but it's not listed in the telephone book, and I don't know how to find out where it
is.

I still have my old Latin Missal, but I'm not sure that I remember what to do. I'd be quite nervous
I think.

[tjwmason]

14. Do you mean Maternal Heart, Lewisham?

It's on Thomas Street, Lewisham - there's a map on their web-site: http://www.maternalheart.org/

I've heard good things about the community - but it is well worth noting that they're very traditional in just about every way imaginable.

When I've attended, I tend to sit somewhat towards the back so one can see when folk are standing/kneeling. It did take a couple of attendances before I was fully 'at ease' and able to concentrate more fully on the Mass - but I find that with any new parish, as all have some local traditions which vary.