I am petitioning mods for a pro-life dems DU Group started

[mrgorth]

I don't even consider myself pro-life but no one should have to deal with the vitriol I'm seeing just for asking questions about fetal viability.

[DemBones DemBones]

1. Count me in! I don't understand why DUers are

not interested in reducing the need for abortion by providing economic assistance to pregnant women in need and to mothers in need, and providing better education about contraception and better access to contraceptives. More concern is shown here over dead pets than over the million plus abortions performed annually in the US. I love animals, too, but we should value our own species as much as any other. Just as we should control our pets' reproduction so that "unwanted" animals don't have to be euthanized, we should control our own reproduction so we don't feel we have to abort our "unwanted" children.

A pregnant women should of course be able to receive any medical treatment needed to save her life, even if it endangers or ends her baby's life. That's the Catholic position.

For example, the Church recognizes that a pregnant woman who is diagnosed with uterine cancer may need to have a hysterectomy to save her life, and supports her right to do that while pregnant, even though the baby will die in the process.

The Church only considers it a sin when surgery or drugs are used with the deliberate intent of killing the baby, i.e., causing an abortion. When the baby's death is an unavoidable secondary effect of treatment for the mother, it is not considered sinful.


Politically, the Democratic Party has been hurt and continues to be hurt by being "the abortion party." The GOP doesn't really want to end abortion, of course. Some individual Republicans do, but the party as a whole just wants to use the issue. The "partial birth abortion ban" isn't going to stop any woman from getting an abortion. It will only stop women from getting one type of abortion.

Democrats would be smart to show how little the GOP has done to end abortion and to propose ways to reduce the need/demand for abortions. Democrats would also be smart to discuss the culture of life (a phrase coined by Pope John Paul II and hijacked by a certain Republican who doesn't know what John Paul II meant by it.) The culture of life is not just about opposing abortion. It's also about opposing euthanasia, the death penalty, and war, but it goes beyond opposing various forms of deliberately-induced death. The culture of life affirms life, it encourages us to find ways of providing means for feeding the hungry, healing the sick, educating children, providing living wages and meaningful work, caring for the elderly and disabled, strengthening communities, protecting the environment, making peace with other nations -- all the things Democrats do best.

[Beer Snob-50]

2. I think you would find that most Democrats want to reduce the

need for abortion through the methods you mentioned. Unfortunatly, there are some who have the knee jerk reaction when one mentions reducing the need for abortion. I think you would also find many republicans who would be okay with your sugguestions.

[JNelson6563]

3. Good post

This whole argument could be at least somewhat neutralized if we could all focus on our common ground on this topic. It's in everyone's best interest to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Obviously the way to achieve that is through education and availability of effective birth control.

While I support a woman's right to choose I also support her right to access to birth control so that she doesn't have to make that painful and difficult choice.

When you reach the point of shared goals between sides then you take away one of the R's most effective tools for keeping their base whipped up in a frenzy.

Julie

[DemBones DemBones]

4. Thank you. It's great to hear from someone who is pro-choice and

understands what I'm saying. Often I have said these things in other forums and been accused of being a man, of not knowing what it's like to be pregnant, of wanting to control women, and of wanting women to die in back alleys, none of which are at all true.

This is a wedge issue used to divide Americans. If we stopped letting it divide us, we could work on helping women prevent pregnancies they don't want and caring for the babies they do want.

Dennis Kucinich has talked at length about this, about stopping the fighting and working on solutions to reduce the need for abortions, which is one of the reasons I support him. Democrats really need to take this approach on all the wedge issues.

[JNelson6563]

5. That's it in a nutshell

The issue of abortion should unite us all in working to eliminate unwanted pregnancy. Instead the R's use it to divide us.

Cheers,
Julie

[pnwmom]

11. Unfortunately, the Catholic position

does not allow for aborting a fetus who is going to be severely damaged by a treatment that is necessary to save a pregnant woman's life -- causing a pregnant woman to have to choose between giving birth to a horribly damaged baby or dying herself.

Also, an abortion is not allowed to save the life of the mother, unless the fetus will inevitably die, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Remember that a Catholic woman who has an abortion only has to confess

and she will be absolved and able to receive the Sacraments again, as with any other mortal sin.

The Church also has special programs to help women recover spiritually and emotionally after abortion.

[pnwmom]

13. And this is supposed to comfort a woman

who is faced with a life threatening pregnancy or labor - how?

Is she supposed to take a chance that she won't die without getting to confession first?

[DemBones DemBones]

14. Accepting your premise of a woman who "will die without an abortion,"

if she has the abortion, she supposedly won't die. Then she calls for a priest, confesses, and is absolved.


Alternately, she refuses to consent to abortion but is overruled by her husband, to whom she has given a medical power of attorney, or by an emergency injunction from a judge. She calls a priest for Confession and Viaticum and if she dies due to the abortion, she didn't sin because she didn't consent but was forced to undergo the abortion.

If her husband is Catholic, he will have to confess that he ordered an abortion be performed on his wife, but even if she dies due to the abortion, he'll be absolved if he repents. I doubt many priests would give him much of a penance to do, given the circumstances.


Every pregnant woman probably should give her husband a medical power of attorney in case the worst happens and he has to decide whether she should be placed on a ventilator, that sort of thing.


I wonder how many women actually "would die without an abortion." I know a fair number have to have treatment that may kill the baby, or be delivered before the baby is viable, but those are not abortions as the intent is not to kill the baby but to save the mother and they try to save the baby, too, if possible. Removing an ectopic pregnancy is not abortion, either, because the baby, if not already dead, will die. The mother will die if the ectopic pregnancy is not removed.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. What happened with the proposal for a pro-life group? nt

[mrgorth]

7. I never

heard anything.

[rug]

8. I guess it's not viable.

[Book Lover]

9. Did you get your ten people to "sign up"? (nm)

[DemBones DemBones]

10. To echo Book Lover: did you get ten people with stars to sign up?

If not, do you want to try again? I can help, if you'd like, since I organized this group. PM me if you'd like my help.

I think DU would benefit from a Pro-life Group because people would see the reasonable side of the pro-life movement. The media shows the few clinic bombers as if they are representative of the Pro-Life movement and I've never heard them point out that they are not representative at all, that every mainstream Pro-Life organization condemns violence. This is strange because they take great pains to say that all Muslims are not terrorists every time there's a terrorist act carried out by Muslims. It's a clear case of bias against the Pro-Life movement.

Not everyone is familiar with the Seamless Garment pro-life philosophy, either, and that's a shame. A Pro-Life Group could show that Pro-Life is about far more than just abortion, that it ties in with all social justice issues.

[YOY]

15. Count me way out.

Please. Just keep 'fetal viability' out of the realm of brutal reality.

Cafeteria Catholic I may be, but this pro-life bs is just that: BS. I went through enough graphic BS lectures/videos in Catholic HS. I'd like to think we're a little better than the Catholic sheep that the pro-life movement treats us.

[skater314159]

16. I would like to organise a CLEF

Consistent
Life
Ethic
Forum

... for I feel that too often the debate becomes about "abortion" and that's it. I want to craft a forum where we can discuss all aspects of Humanae Vitae, writings of the Church Fathers, Code of Canon Law, CCC, etc and how they affect our lives as we live a Consistent Life Ethic as outlined by PJP II and B16.

I'm going to start a thread later today that will be on economic euthanasia in Texas... it's easy to start a thread, and once we build up momentum, we can create a forum (if we need it).

--Peace

[skater314159]

17. I've posted threads with items to discuss n/t