If Catholic politicians who support abortion rights are outside the fold,

[hedgehog]

what about Catholic politicians who support capital punishment? What about Catholic politicians who support the war in Iraq? It's been declared an unjust war by leading theologians and I think the Pope.

[tjwmason]

1. There is a difference

The war was declared to be unjust by the then Pope in his position as a private theologian; so too capital punishment was opposed by John Paul II as a private judgement.

[hedgehog]

2. But isn't that Cafeteria Catholicism?

I don't want to be mean, just want to get people to be honest enough to admit that we all set different standards. Somehow what the Pope says about artificial birth control or clerical celibacy is unassailable and not even to be discussed, but capital punishment, unjust wars? Eh, that's just his opinion.

[AngryOldDem]

3. Looking at this objectively....

...check the Catechism 2266, followed by 2267 on capital punishment and 2309 on just war.

While the Church accepts the responsibility of the State to protect itself and its citizens from harm, even if that means the imposition of capital punishment, the CCC also goes on to say that non-lethal means of punishment are preferred, seeing as how most societies have advanced so that such means are just as effective in protecting citizens against violence and violent people. Quoting 2267: "Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm -- without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself -- the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'"

That is also articulated in John Paul II's Evangelium vitae. I am amazed at how many Catholics seem to forget this passage as they defend capital punishment. To me it's pretty clear where the Church stands on it. Simply: Just because it is an option does not mean that it should be exercised.

On just war (I'll let you decide for yourselves how Iraq fits in to this):

"--The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

"--All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

"--There must be serious prospects of success;

"--The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in this condition."

Should Catholics -- especially Catholic politicians -- be evaluated just as strictly and forcefully on these issues as they are on abortion or any other issue where there is disagreement, both in and out of the Church?

Most absolutely they should.

[DemBones DemBones]

4. "Cafeteria Catholicism" refers to Catholics picking and choosing

which of the teachings of the Church they will obey and which they won't.

There is no teaching of the Church prohibiting capital punishment and none prohibiting war, though only just wars are allowed. There are teachings prohibiting abortion and artificial birth control. Therefore, all Catholics have an obligation to oppose abortion and artificial birth control, but can make their own judgements about capital punishment and war.

It's not "cafeteria Catholicism" to support the death penalty and just wars, or to oppose them, or oppose one and support the other. We're all supposed to inform our consciences through study of the Catechism at least, better yet if we read writings of the Church fathers, and then we're supposed to use our informed consciences to determine whether a particular war is just (or whether war can ever be just today) and whether capital punishment is ever justified. Personally, I oppose them but others may use their informed consciences and come to different conclusions, allowing them to support these state-sponsored killings.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have spoken out against the war in Iraq and against capital punishment. Since Cardinal Ratzinger was in charge of the writing of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and John Paul II approved it, I think it's safe to assume that it reflects the thinking of both. It has never been Church teaching that war or capital punishment are prohibited and they chose not to prohibit them in the updated Catechism, though strongly suggesting that we should no longer have wars or execute criminals.

Why did they choose not to prohibit capital punishment and war entirely? I can only guess that, not being able to foresee the future, they thought there might be a future need for them. A pope's opinions are not binding on Catholics. Only if he speaks ex cathedra are we obliged to heed what he says. Catholics can ignore what he said about the Iraq war just as we are not obligated to pray the Luminous Mysteries he suggested or practice the Divine Mercy devotion just because he believed in Sister Faustina's visions. It's when we ignore formal teachings of the Church that we become cafeteria Catholics.

[rug]

5. Catholics are prohibited from supporting unjust wars and unnecessary executions.

The Fifth Commandment covers that.

The problem is the Church does not exercise its massive moral authority and position to definitively state a war is unjust or that a state or country's systematized capital punishment is wrong.

Consequently Catholics can blithely cheer any war or execution they support because it has not been explicitly prohibited.

It is an abysmal abandonment of moral leadership and borders on the sin of scandal.

If the Church spent a tenth of the energy it spends on issues involving sex on issues concerning war and poverty, the world would be unrecognizable.

[DemBones DemBones]

7. I agree that the Church leadership could and should take on

a strong leadership position on these issues. They don't have to modify Church teachings to do so because "Thou shalt not kill" can cover it. However, there are some theologians/scholars who say that the proper translation is "Thou shalt not murder," which allows for war and capital punishment but not abortion or euthanasia. In a just war people fight an enemy and avoid killing civilians, in a perfect world, only the guilty are executed. Killing criminals and enemies is far different from killing innocent unborn babies or sick people, but I still think we should oppose all of these acts.

Back in the early Seventies, the bishop of San Antonio preached a lot against nuclear weapons and suggested that Catholics should not be involved in the manufacture of those weapons, which were being made in his diocese. I don't know how many Catholics in his diocese were able to find other employment but I know some did and were very supportive of the bishop for his leadership, for helping them to see the evil inherent in nuclear weapons. In the Eighties, I think it was, Cardinal Bernardin preached the seamless garment approach to life.

In the Sixties and Seventies, more priests and religious were involved in the anti-war movement and the anti-capital punishment movement. Of course, Vatican II caused many priests and religious to abandon their vocations so there aren't as many priests and religious to be involved today and many who have kept their vocations are pretty old now. There are still some who have gone to prison numerous times for trespassing at the School of the Americas in Ft. Benning, GA, and at nuclear weapons facilities. A couple of sisters in their seventies climbed atop a missile silo and poured red paint over it, symbolizing blood, of course.

I think that today many priests and bishops are afraid to be "controversial." Most priests don't preach against abortion expect on Respect Life Sunday and never against contraception, war, or capital punishment. I saw a priest on EWTN who preaches against both abortion and contraception and his parish has responded very positively, with people becoming more involved in the parish since he became pastor and dared to preach what the Church teaches. A busload of them accompanied him to EWTN to be in the audience and several of them spoke out about how much they liked his leadership. I didn't see the entire program so I don't know what position he takes on war and the death penalty.

You might want to join Pax Christi if there is a chapter near you, or even start one. They protest against war and the death penalty.

Write to your bishop about your concerns, too, and to the USCCB, the papal nuncio in D.C. and the pope as well. The Church isn't a democracy but that doesn't mean we shouldn't express our desires to have the Faith preached strongly and to have the seamless garment of life preached.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. You know, the Catholic community isn't as universally opposed to Vatican II as you would have it

seem.

[rug]

10. There are many heroic priests, religious and laity. It's the leadership that's lacking.

The theoretical concepts of the fourth century (post-Constantine) that permitted the possibility of a just war then hardly fit the reality of war and state violence today.

[theredpen]

13. What hasn't the Church done?

Every time I bother to look, I find a pretty consistent chorus of "The Iraq War is Unjust" from the highest levels of the RCC down to the Bishops.

What more do you think they could be doing?

[rug]

16. Let's see. Deny Communion to politicians who support the war?

Issue an encyclical delineting how the war is unjust?

Make a Holy Day of Obligation honoring the Prince of Peace?

Read a letter from the Bishop in each church one Sunday urging parishioners to pray for the enemy?

Excommunicate commissioned chaplains who are participating in an unjust war?

Or maybe they should just proclaim the Gospel. And mean it.

[hedgehog]

6. Who decides what Church teachings are? Who decided that of all

the Catholics in the world, only a small, self selected group of celibates, overwhelmingly European, had a direct line to the Holy Spirit?

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Why don't you read up on Church history?

It should be useful to you as a CCD teacher to have more knowledge of how the Church developed over two milennia.

[hedgehog]

11. Church history is undergoing some reexamination as new archaeological findings

are coming in. There are indications that there were females taking the role of priest and even bishops in the very early Church. The fact that we may be more Roman than Catholic at the current time doesn't mean that that's the way we should be.

We should be very careful of what we are taught about history as well. To call Peter the first Pope is rather silly when you consider that in his time there weren't even really bishops or dioceses as we think of them today. Was he a leader, maybe THE leader? I think so. That doesn't mean that our leader(s) have to be bound into the current papal structure.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. My freshman religious teacher used to talk about female deacons

He himself was a priest. Fr. Beckett was his name. I meant to look into it.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. There were deaconesses for sure, but I think the jury is

still out on women priests and bishops. I think deaconesses could be very helpful today.

[hedgehog]

15. Take a look.

http://www.futurechurch.org/newsletter/spring05/officeholders.htm


To me, the real qustion is what happened between now and then. I strongly suspect it happened when leadership roles in the Church were conflated with leadership roles in government. The concept of diocese seems natural to us, but it was grafted on from Roman civic organization.