I have a question about the Group's name..

[Princess Turandot]

I don't mean to insult anyone, so please dont take it that way.

I originally thought that this group was set up for Catholics.
Eastern Rite Catholics are often confused with the Orthodox Church, which is not subordinate to the Vatican, while the eastern rite Catholics are.

I noticed that a group was just set up for 'Progressive Christians'; some people posting here have also posted there.

I don't know if anyone posting here is a member of the Orthodox Church. I have no issue with Orthodox Christians, but when I hear the word 'orthodox', it always makes me think of the difference between Orthodox Jews, vs. Conservative or Reformed Jews, which is a very big difference. So I wonder whether people who see the title of this group on the DU List (and who know little about the Latin/Eastern schism with the Orthodox Church) think that this is a group of ultra-conservative Catholics, as opposed to inclusive Catholics, like DU's version of Opus Dei.

I keep thinking that we should change the name of the group to something like 'Catholic Democrats', while indicating in the description that all Catholics, Orthodox Church members and Protestants are welcome for civil discussions.

[AngryOldDem]

1. That is a very good point

It never occurred to me until just now that "Orthodox Christian" could be taken in a more general sense, and could give the impression that this board is "exclusive."

I second this suggestion.

[Princess Turandot]

2. That too..

I'm concerned that the title would seem like we are a group of reactionary Catholics, because most people do not understand that aspect of the Church's history, and what the words mean.

And being from NYC, and knowing a lot of Jewish people, most of whom are somewhere between conservative and reformed, the word 'orthodox' signals not only exclusivity, but also disdain for them because they are non-orthodox Jews. I know several people who 'lost' family members who married into Orthodox families, and who then refused
to have anything to do with their own families, because they were a 'bad influence'. There is even a Hassidic group here in NYC which rides around in something they called the 'Mitzvah-Mobile', trying to attract Jews to a more Orthodox practice of their faith.

[Maeve]

3. I see your point, but disagree

The Orthodox Church is over-looked in American society, other than mention in movies/show about Greeks or maybe Russian immigrants. They are misunderstood by both of the other major branches of Christianity since both Catholics and Protestants share a Western philosophy/history and the Orthodox are steeped in Eastern/Hellenic/Slavic history and culture. The use of ritual, the priesthood and mystical/monastic tradition make them more akin to Catholics than to Protestants, but they are quite different, too.

By including them, we have invited in another group that is often misunderstood and shut out. I would rather we keep the name and the open chair by our fire for our Orthodox friends instead of limiting the group to those who acknowlege Rome.

For more info on the Orthodox, may I suggest http://www.oca.org/ The Orthodox Church in America website.

[Princess Turandot]

4. I don't misunderstand the Orthodox church nor was I suggesting

that they be excluded from this group, although I don't know if any Orthodox Christian has posted here to date. I thought I made that clear in my post. There was a Russian Orthodox Church on the block I grew up on. I don't need links. I have nothing against them.

My suggestion was based on the word 'Orthodox' and what that means to most people, especially in the context of religion. My post was made after I saw the new 'Progressive' Christian DU Group. I think most people equate the word 'orthodox' with a rigidly traditional outlook on whatever it is applied to, and that when they see 'Orthodox Christians' in this group's title, they don't think about Russian and Armenian Orthodox Churches (since they probably don't even know abt that subset of Christianity), they think about fundamentalism or the Gibson family. My concern is that we may be keeping other Catholics away from the group, because as I said in my original post, the title could be mis-construed.

When I first read the title of this group when it was set up, I actually thought that the words 'Orthodox Christians' were mistakenly used as a proxy for 'Eastern Rite' Catholics, since it seemed odd to me to set up a group for Catholics and only one other branch of Christianity. Why not add the Episcopalians as well into the name of the group, if the goal is to attract those Christian groups with more things in common with each other?

[DemBones DemBones]

5. When I proposed the group, I used the title "Catholic and Orthodox

Christians" to mean DUers who are Roman Catholic (but also Marionite, American Catholic, etc.) and also DUers who are members of one of the Eastern Rite churches, whether Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, whatever. I intended for "Catholic" and "Orthodox" to be adjectives modifying the noun "Christian," and specifying that these are non-Protestant Christians who trace their faith back to the first century A.D., to the original Christians. It's historic fact that the Roman Catholic Church was THE Christian church for centuries, with the Eastern Rites being the first Christians to split off from Rome's authority. I intended to refer to those who follow the teachings of the oldest churches because of our similarities of belief as well as our similar liturgical practices.

Some immediately asked me why I left out Episcopalians, who are Anglo-Catholics. My immediate reaction was surprise because most Episcopalians I know consider themselves Protestants, though Henry VIII set up the Church of England before Martin Luther wrote his 99 theses and the Anglican/ Episcopal Churches are more Catholic in liturgy and structure than any other Protestants. There are doctrinal differences, though, about theological issues like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, differences about the priesthood (they allow priests to marry, as do the Eastern rites, but they also allow women to become priests) and differences about social teachings (they endorse contraception, abortion, same sex marriage.) BUT, having said all that, I know that some Episcopalians consider themselves Anglo-Catholics. Those that do are more than welcome to join us.

I understand your concern that people will misunderstand our group because of its name. The main reason they should know that we're not right wing Christians is that we're a DU group! In using the term "Orthodox Christian," I assumed that DUers are well informed enough to have a general idea of what is meant by the phrase. I think fewer will have heard the terms"Eastern Rite Catholics" or "Eastern Rite Christians," though I may be wrong about that. Earlier, we did have posters here who identified themselves as members of other than the Roman rite. Now that we're past the introductory phase, posters aren't mentioning their rite.

In the statement about the purpose of the group, I tried to make it clear that we would be inclusive of anyone wishing to engage in respectful dialogue about Catholicism and/or issues of interest to Catholics, regardless of their religious affiliation or lack of one. While debate is welcomed, I also made it clear that this was a forum primarily for discussions between Catholics and wasn't to be a forum to attack Catholic belief. That statement was approved by a majority of those who had indicated they were interested in participating in the group before I submitted it to Skinner for approval. It -- the statement -- is still pinned at the top of the group, under a post by Skinner welcoming people to the group, so anyone curious about the group can read the statement. Also, anyone can read all the threads here and see what our perspective is.

Hope that helps.

[Princess Turandot]

6. I was just making a suggestion....

when I first saw the post about establishing this group, I think as it was being established, I actually made the same comment, but the name was already established.

I respectfully disagree with you that that most DU'ers will 'get' what the meaning of the title is. Given the level of hostility towards Catholics on the main boards saying "they should know that we're not right wing Christians is that we're a DU group" is a bit unrealistic. And some of those may even be DU Catholics, who might think that this is a conservative Catholic enclave and may not bother to read the purpose of the group.

Thank you for your explanation of your reasoning.
It doesn't change my view but perhaps gives me a better idea
of what this group was intended to represent. Based on your response, I personally probably have more in common with Episcopalians from a social teaching than I do with you.
I won't bring it up again, and hope the group is able to attach more members.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. It seems that you are dissatisfied with

the way the group was set up, to which I can only say that I did my best to choose a name and write a statement that would be both restrictive and inclusive in nature. It needs restrictiveness to make it different from other groups, but I wanted inclusiveness because that's what "catholic" means. Anyone may post here but some guidelines are established for discussions.

I can't be responsible for, or overly concerned about, those who reject the group without bothering to read its statement of purpose and/or go past the name of the group to see what's happening in it. The group will either succeed or fail based on what posters choose to make it, not on the name I chose or the statement I wrote to get it off the ground (which was vetted by other members and changed based on suggestions.)

You also wrote: "Based on your response, I personally probably have more in common with Episcopalians from a social teaching than I do with you." I am puzzled about your comment because in my earlier reply I wrote this in discussing the Episcopal and Catholic Churches:

"There are doctrinal differences, though, about theological issues like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, differences about the priesthood (they allow priests to marry, as do the Eastern rites, but they also allow women to become priests) and differences about social teachings (they endorse contraception, abortion, same sex marriage.)"

Notice that I didn't say what *my* position was on any of the social matters, matters concerning the priesthood, or theological issues. So isn't it really that you "have more in common with the Episcopal Church from a social teaching than with the Catholic Church"?

:shrug:

[Princess Turandot]

9. I was referring to the name of the group, nothing else..

and my sole motive from the first time that I brought this up was to attract more people to the group, not to challenge your conception of it, since I didn't even know who had first suggested it. Since you took the time to explain that you specifically excluded Episcopalians, because of their doctrinal differences and their different views on social issues, I apparently mistakenly assumed all of those differences were important to you, personally. Mea Culpa. (BTW, I actually mentioned Episcopalians in the first place as a rhetorical comment, because the group's name includes one non-Catholic group but excludes another whose beliefs are quite similar to Catholicism, leaving out the transubstantiation.)

I started this thread as a 'marketing' suggestion only.
Just as I (and I assume many others) don't bother to open many threads on the DU boards based on their title alone, my concern was that someone who was liberal and interested in discussing Catholicism might be immediately turned off by the word 'Orthodox' in the title of the group, and would not bother to read the description. 'Orthodox' is a loaded word as it relates to religion IMO.

You think having it in the title makes the group more inclusive;
I think having it in the title may do just the opposite. Since only 2 other of the dozen or so people actually posting in here seem to have an opinion on the topic, I guess it doesn't matter one way or the other.

[pelagius]

10. Anglo-Catholic here!

Or, if you will, an Episcopalian. May I just say that Episcopalians very much believe in the Real Presence. Anglicans don't teach transubstantiation, but, like the Orthodox, decline to speculate on the nature of the Mystery.

I am certain their are Episcopalians who are "memorialists", i.e., those who believe the Eucharist is merely a commemoration, but I daresay I know a few Roman Catholics who believe that, too. But that is not the teaching of the Church.

There are genuine differences between Anglicans, Orthodox, and Catholics, but the Real Presence isn't a major one.

[TrogL]

11. Not all Episcopaleans are Anglo-Catholic

AFAIK, anyway.

I'm not even going to pretend to explain the differences between run-of-the-mill Anglican/Episcopalean, High Anglicans, Evangelical Anglicans :scared: and Anglo-Catholics other than Anglo-Catholics tend to be stricter in examination of dogma and liturgy and tend to lean towards Orthodox thinking (with some Romish overtones).

[DemBones DemBones]

12. No, but some are. If I'd left out a comma in an earlier statement,

this might have been clearer. ;-)

I'll try again. Initially, I didn't mention Episcopalians because they're not Catholic -- or Orthodox -- and many would have no interest in out group, IMO. Some would be downright insulted if you called them Anglo-Catholic. Actual Anglo-Catholics might feel more at home here than other Episcopalians/ Anglicans. But I didn't want to shut anyone out who agrees with our statement of purpose, and I hope we all feel that way.

[Maeve]

7. I did not mean to imply you misunderstood them

The link was provided for others who read the posts who might be less informed--the issue you were addressing. Many more people read than post here at DU and I tend to write to the wider audience as well as the person I respond to--sorry if it came across as a slight.