Father Roy Bourgeois is facing excommunication, Cardinal Law was given a promotion;

[hedgehog]

what's wrong with this picture?

http://ncrcafe.org/node/2333

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEEDA103EF93BA15756C0A9629C8B63


And if Roy Bourgeois is excommunicated, will that be the end of the affair or will it be the start of something?

[Matilda]

1. These articles are symbolic of just how the Vatican gets it horribly wrong.

I say "the Vatican" rather than "the Church", because I agree with the reader in the first article
who reminded us that "we are the Church". There is all too often a huge split between the Vatican
hierarchy, and the laity and the many good priests out there "on the ground".

It's a great shame that John XXIII was a one-off rather than a forerunner of the type of pope to
come. Unfortunately, for us and for the Church, those who followed him reverted to the autocratic
style of the days when most people were at best indifferently educated, and the inferior status of
women was accepted without question. The Vatican is about power and the preservation of privilege
rather than love, charity and equality. I sometimes wonder if anybody behind those cloistered walls
actually realises that people today are literate, with great and immediate resources of study at
their fingertips. We don't need the Vatican to do our thinking for us, or to interpret the Word
according to their own point of view. Oh, and yes, women are no longer content to be kept barefoot
and pregnant, confined to kitchen, bedroom and nursery.

Why don't I leave? Because I believe that they are wrong, and I'm not going to let them push me
out. It's my church just as much as it is that of the Pope and his cardinals and archbishops.

I live in Sydney, where Catholics just shrug at the pronouncements of the fundamentalist Cardinal
Pell, and I'm in a progressive parish where only a few of the very old bother to buy The Catholic
Weekly, and where the parish priest can begin a homily by saying "I'm not allowed to talk about
female ordination, but if I were, I'd say ..." and the congregation laugh.

I believe that we who are Catholic and thinking, sentient beings have a duty to keep reminding those
who think they have ultimate authority over us that without us, they'd be nothing.

[hedgehog]

2. What if they gave an excommunication, and nobody came?

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2857


On a related note, what if every divorced and remarried Catholic just showed up for Communion? How many Eucharistic ministers would know or care that they aren't supposed to receive?

[Matilda]

3. Excommunicatiton is an appalling abuse of power.

What a way to cut off discussion - someone doesn't agree with your point
of view, so you just say "right, we're cutting you off from the Church
as of now, get out", simply because you've given yourself the power to do
so. No rational discussion, no intelligent debate, just go and be
damned.

It's a horrible thing to do to a person, and I would think only the very
worst cases of apostasy would warrant such a stand - and a true apostate
wouldn't care anyway.

But to condemn someone for simply discussing an issue that is really a
matter of basic human rights - no way can this ever be justified. Your
country and mine have laws about free speech, and the Church has no right
to override the law of the land, in my humble opinion.

[hedgehog]

4. I would say that those of us from the colonies are troublemakers,

what with our uppity notions that we can think for ourselves. There's this little thing about the Gifts of the Spirit, see. On the other hand, it is clear that the Europeans are just walking away from church. It amazes me to no end that the English couldn't turn the Irish away from the Catholic Church with every method up to and including genocide by neglect. It took the Catholic bishops only 50 years to accomplish that.

[47of74]

5. We don't - and it's not our job to be arbiters of who is worthy and not

I am a Eucharistic minister, and no, I wouldn't no who would be worthy or not. Nor would most others. Besides, it's not our job to be the arbiter of who is worthy and who is not worthy.

[47of74]

6. The right people aren't being promoted

I think a lot of the problems come from the fact that the right people aren't being promoted in the church. The good priests on the ground are not going anywhere in the church while those who don't have any business being priests in the first place wind up as favorite sons of the Vatican.

[Matilda]

7. Absolutely agree.

Viz., John Paul II appointing dozens of cardinals who reflected his own
conservative views before his death. This alone ensures that the chain
of command will continue to reflect those views for decades to come.

I sometimes wonder whether the hierarchy realise that we've come out of
feudal times, where the majority of people were content to let their
"betters" make decisions for them.

And I'm not the first person to ask this, but how would the Christ of the
Gospels be received by the Vatican if he appeared today, with his simple
style of living, his mercy, love and compassion?

[47of74]

8. He'd probably by excommunicated

[Matilda]

9. Since crucifixion is out of date.

BTW, please tell me what the numbers mean?

[47of74]

11. Decoding the numbers

First, open a new tab (or browser window) and go here.
Second, copy the numbers and paste them into the HEX box.
Third, press decode and you'll see the original message in the first box.

[Matilda]

12. The HEX box?

I have to tell you, I'm mathetmatically challenged.

[Matilda]

10. Here's another example of closed-mind thinking.

I saw this on the LBN thread - I didn't want to read the comments,
because I fear they would just be the usual Catholic-bashing, so I
went to the news link:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/18/Priest_removes_Obama_books_from_school/UPI-74271229623123


My reading of this article is that the books are not about Obama's pro-
choice stand, but about the man himself, in all his facets. One would
think it's important for students to know something of their future
president, but not so it seems - because of one issue. That's
appallingly narrow and naive.

Do we assume from this that the good father would give his support to
a Sarah Palin, because she's anti-abortion? Never mind that she's also
an ignorant, power-abusing, animal-killing, war-mongering and unpleasant
person - she's our kind of Christian!

[roody]

13. I love Father Roy.

He is a prophet. Here he is on Democracy Now.

http://a4.video2.blip.tv/0370000351875/Demnow-DemocracyNowThursdayNovember202008493.mp4