Trad Vs. Liberal or Roman Vs Pagan?

[hedgehog]

Bear with me on this - I'm still working it out.

I woke up this morning with a hymn in my head, and was thinking about the contempt that so many Trads have for the newer hymns. (Only in the RCC is a 50 year old hymn "new"). I was also thinking how so much of the Trad contempt for changes since Vatican II is associated with the contempt for the culture of the 60's. It ranges from dislike for "folk" hymns to Benedict XVI's turn to the right after 60's student protests.

So, what is the common thread in the split between Trad and Liberal? In general, Trads prefer order, rules imposed from the top, masculine rule and are opposed to expressions of sexuality, spontaneity and rule by consensus. In general, so-called Liberals are more open to the feminine, more comfortable with sexuality in all its forms, local variations in ritual, and opposed to rules from above. I think most of the arguments over the role of the laity, female priests, priestly celibacy, same sex relations, birth control, Latin vs vernacular, etc. can be covered by those descriptions.

I think that most Trad values are in fact Roman values. Consider the powerful role of the chief male in the Roman family, with literally life and death power over family members. Consider the Roman virtues of complete self control, mistrust of sexuality and contempt for the feminine and respect for all the masculine. Look at the Roman effort to exert authority and control over nature. Look at the Roman love of logic, of defining everything and assigning roles.

I find the sources for the Liberal point of view outside of Rome, and have chosen to wrap aspects of Celtic, Native American, Wiccan etc spiritualities under the general term Pagan, a term that originally referred to the rural person outside the city gates. Here we find an appreciation of spontaneity, of the feminine, of people with same sex attractions
and the gender queer. Here we find shamans of all sorts. Tribal law tends to be consensus law, with the chief chosen to serve largely as administrator. Pagans are nature lovers.

Now, this is huge generalization, because pre-Christian societies had their own cruelties. There are reasons the Irish were so eager to hear Patrick's preaching. Still, I think the Roman Catholics and Pagan Catholic have for centuries worshiped side by side in the same physical structures and shared the same organization more or less in tolerance. It was the "Pagan" Catholics who "baptized" Saturnalia, Mid-summer's Eve, Samhein, etc. It was the "Roman" Catholics who were always uneasy with celebration. I think that Trent set the stage for suppressing the "Pagan" Catholics, and that Vatican II was an effort to restore a balance. I think the current "reform of the reform" and "new Evanglization" will result in a split between the Roman Catholics and Pagan Catholics.

[rug]

1. I see it more as a clash between the following the Law for the sake of the Law versus living it.

John, Chapter 5

1 After this, there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem at the Sheep (Gate) a pool called in Hebrew Bethesda, with five porticoes.
3 In these lay a large number of ill, blind, lame, and crippled.
4 *
5 One man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had been ill for a long time, he said to him, “Do you want to be well?”
7 The sick man answered him, “Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; while I am on my way, someone else gets down there before me.”
8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your mat, and walk.”
9 Immediately the man became well, took up his mat, and walked. Now that day was a sabbath.
10 So the Jews said to the man who was cured, “It is the sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry your mat.”
11 He answered them, “The man who made me well told me, ‘Take up your mat and walk.’”
12 They asked him, “Who is the man who told you, ‘Take it up and walk’?”
13 The man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away, since there was a crowd there.
14 After this Jesus found him in the temple area and said to him, “Look, you are well; do not sin any more, so that nothing worse may happen to you.”
15 The man went and told the Jews that Jesus was the one who had made him well.
16 Therefore, the Jews began to persecute Jesus because he did this on a sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is at work until now, so I am at work.”
18 For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.

* <5:4> Toward the end of the second century in the West and among the fourth-century Greek Fathers, an additional verse was known: “For an angel of the Lord used to come down into the pool; and the water was stirred up, so the first one to get in was healed of whatever disease afflicted him.” The angel was a popular explanation of the turbulence and the healing powers attributed to it. This verse is missing from all early Greek manuscripts and the earliest versions, including the original Vulgate. Its vocabulary is markedly non-Johannine.

[hedgehog]

2. Following the Law makes everything black and white, it also

removes the need to do any thinking. It makes Salvation a mercenary exchange; I do this and don't do that and thus I earn Salvation. Living the Law requires a constant inquiry into the meaning and source of the Law; it's hard work. It's also a constant confrontation with our own ignorance; an acknowledgment that we are in the hands of what we can't comprehend but can only trust.