Does the Church you attend have a pro-life group?

[Midlodemocrat]

Mine does. I was asked recently why I didn't participate in the walk for life in DC and I said "because I am pro-choice". Stunned silence. Then I was asked "is it because you are a democrat?" and I replied "No, it is because the government has no business meddling in people's medical affairs".

I am pro-choice, for others. I have never been in a situation where I needed to obtain an abortion, but I have many, many friends who did have abortions, and that decision is none of my business.

I just wish it weren't all so black and white. I am also Anti-Death Penalty, but these folks aren't. Don't understand why they don't see the hypocrisy in that.

Sigh.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

1. Thank you for posting that.

Your thoughts are the same as mine.

I've felt this way for years and when I try to discuss it with friends who claim to be pro-life, it just ends up in a huge argument.

To me pro-lifers who believe in the death penalty are the ultimate hyprocrites.

BTW I don't regularly attend Mass at either of the parishes that are close to us. I've tried both and they leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. Ours has one, but I don't belong.

While I am personally pro-life, I am politically pro-choice; I hope that that makes sense. I am also anti-CP.

:)

[Midlodemocrat]

4. That is where I stand.

And interestingly, I have never had an abortion, but I know three women who voted for Bush who did. When I was pregnant with my son, the doctors thought perhaps he had Down Syndrome and we went through the whole genetic testing thing. After hearing what the doctors had to say about therapeutic abortion, I knew it wasn't for me, but when you undergo genetic testing, it really makes you think. When they explain all the things that can go wrong with conception, it is a miracle anyone is ever born healthy. When you leave there, you are praying for something as mild as Down Syndrome. It is really something. The only thought I had when I was doing this, was that my dad was French Canadian and there is a high incidence of Tay Sachs disease in French Canadians apparently. Turns out I was not a carrier, but my husband was. I am not sure I could have given birth to a baby only to watch it die, but I didn't have to make that choice, Thank God. He is a very healthy, albeit maddening 12 year old.

[Maeve]

6. I turned down testing on our last child

It was recommended because of my age, but I didn't want even the minor risk the test introduces and I couldn't have aborted anyway.

However, I have friends who have gone thru legal and illegal abortions, raised children alone and given them up for adoption. I've also known someone who died of complications from pregnancy. I am pro-choice because I don't believe I have the right to force ANY of those decisions on another woman.

[Midlodemocrat]

7. I also turned down testing on my last child

I had the high resolution ultra sound which showed her to be perfect. But, there was a hitch. One time when I went to the OB her heartbeat was funky. So, they sent me up to the neonatal care unit for another high resolution ultra sound and at that very moment, her electrical system in her heart was being formed. It was surreal.

Turned out okay. She is a beautiful eight year old, but I wouldn't have aborted anyway.

I won't force my decisions on anyone about their healthcare and their bodies and I certainly don't feel that because I couldn't abort that I am somehow more holy. That is why I can't stand the RW fundies, they have corrupted goodness for their own agenda.

To me, Right to Life means all life, not just the unborn.

[lostnfound]

22. I turned down testing too, because of the "minor risk"

First I was armtwisted by my incredibly insistent O/G to going to see the genetic counselor, despite telling her I was not interested in an amnio..Genetic counselor was also incredibly insistent.

She: Because of your age you should have an amnio

Me: But I wouldn't abort anyway

She: But you should get tested anyway because you never know what you'll do and besides you can at least prepare yourself

Me: There's a risk to the baby isn't there? About a 1 in 200 chance of miscarriage from an amnio?

She: Yes, but you already a 1 in 200 chance of having a baby with Downs so which is worse..

Me: The risks are additive..so my choice is between 1) having a 1 in 200 chance of a baby with Downs or 2) a 1 in 100 chance of having either a baby with Downs or a miscarriage due to amnio. No thank you.

She: (didn't give up)

Me: I'm in the airplane business. If we knew on any given day that we had a 1 in 200 chance of crashing a plane, we would ground our entire fleet rather than take that chance.

It left me feeling vaguely angry about it all. Both of them clearly disrespected me and my beliefs. Presenting choices is one thing, but forcing it down your patient's throat is another.

[DemBones DemBones]

3. The reason Catholics and other Christians can be opposed to abortion yet

favor the death penalty is that those who are sentenced to die under death penalty laws have been tried and found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder(s), sometimes heinous murder(s) while unborn children have committed no crimes. Personally, I don't think abortion or capital punishment should be supported by Christians, but I understand the reasoning of those abortion opponents who support capital punishment. I hope they will come to oppose the death penalty, just as I hope those who support abortion will come to oppose it.

The Bible also condones capital punishment in the OT but nowhere does it condone abortion. It doesn't condemn abortion, either, but perhaps that was unneccessary in the time it was written. I know the folk wisdom in pro-choice circles is that abortion has always existed in every culture but I'm not sure that's factual. I'm not sure we know how abortion was viewed in every culture. I would think that in times and places where parenthood was viewed as essential because children were a person's old age insurance, abortion would not be popular. Add in that food was scarce at times, impairing fertility, and infant/child mortality was high, and the likelihood that abortion was widely practiced or desired would be further reduced, wouldn't it?

In times when abortion was not widely practiced or desired, religious leaders and prophets would have little reason to talk about it, either, which would explain why it wasn't mentioned in the Bible. Up until the late Sixties, abortion was not discussed by American religious or political leaders and, in my experience, was rarely mentioned in private. When it was mentioned, it wasn't mentioned as a "choice" but as an abhorrent practice that was rumoured to occur in some places, like white slavery. Someone studying religious writings of that time period might conclude that no one cared about abortion but that would be an invalid conclusion. It would be akin to concluding that no one cared about pollution then because no one mentioned the damaged ozone layer. A society has to recognize a problem before it will discuss it.

In the probable view of the pro-lifers in your parish, it is ludicrous for anyone to care more about the rights of condemned murderers than about the rights of unborn children. They also think it's ludicrous for anyone to be personally pro-life but accept others' "right to choice." In their view, it's like saying "I would never commit murder myself but I accept that other people may commit murder and I don't judge them." This is what doomed John Kerry among most voters who oppose abortion. They would argue that you don't accept unjust laws, that anyone who recognizes that abortion kills an unborn human being should not accept abortion in any instance.


Being liberal, I don't like their hard-nosed position, but I do wonder if Jesus wouldn't have agreed with them. He said to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. . . I can't think he meant to love only our neighbors who have been born -- remember His concern for children -- but I don't think he meant us to ignore the needs of women. I think we are supposed to help all those in need but also work against all immoral practices that kill, including the death penalty, abortion, war, euthanasia.

[Midlodemocrat]

5. I agree with what CL said right before you.

I am personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice, probably because I never had an abortion. It is also easy for me to take that road because I am not in a position where I will ever have one.

I do have two daughters however, and I am not sure how I would feel about them obtaining one. That being said, we are in a financial position to care for the baby should that occur.

I can't conceive of forcing someone to have a baby that isn't able to care for it, but I agree with you in terms of WWJD. I think we need to work against all immoral practices that kill, war, famine, hunger, poor health care, etc.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Yes, when you think WWJD, you have to think we should work

against all practices that kill, and I'm glad you mentioned hunger, poor health care, etc., since I'm not sure I really talked about the sins of omission, the ways in which society indirectly kills its less fortunate members. I remember it was late, I'd already written a lot and I was trying to find the right words to cover all those issues, and I feel sure I didn't give enough attention to them since I was concentrating on abortion and capital punishment.

One thing is for rock-solid sure: when we ask WWJD, He not only said we should feed the hungry, give drink to those who thirst, care for the sick, and visit those in prison, He said that when we do any of those things, we are doing it to Him, whether it be feeding Him, visiting Him in prison, whatever. So right there we are told very clearly, in the direct words of Jesus, how important it is to care for other people. I think we can extrapolate that and His other teachings to say that making abortion unnecessary is a goal we should work toward.

In an ideal world, no woman should conceive except by choice, and no pregnant woman should ever have to feel that abortion is her best choice. Rather than forcing any woman to bear a child, it's about creating a world in which no woman ever feels forced by circumstances to end her child's life. I don't think we can ever achieve such a perfect society in this life but I think we are expected to try.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

8. Well, in the Bible, it says that the crime for causing a pregnant woman to

lose her child is a fine at the discretion of the husband. That doesn't sound too serious for what is the loss of a fetus. I mean, the same OT also prescribes death for wearing clothes of 2 different materials!

Note: I am not saying that the Bible is pro-choice. I am saying that the Bible has many different ways of being interpreted, depending on the agenda of the ones interpreting it.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. Very true, and I've certainly thought about that. A lot of the OT is

puzzling at best and reflects a very different society with a very limited understanding of science. My guess is that they placed little value on fetal life for two reasons, one being that they were accustomed to many infants and children dying in the natural course of things. A secondary reason would be that they knew so little about prenatal development or the mechanics of conception. No doubt you've read about the old idea that the sperm contained an "homunculus" (little man) that, under the right conditions, could develop in a woman's womb. There's certainly no question that knowledge about embryonic and fetal development has grown tremendously just in the past few decades. By comparison, the people of ancient Israel barely knew what "causes" babies.

As I said just above, though, if we extrapolate Jesus's teachings about caring for others, we have to think He would be concerned about unborn babies. He would, IMO, be equally concerned about their mothers. So we're looking for a balance in a world in which the mother's rights have been elevated to exclude those of the unborn.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. I completely agree with that.

I think Jesus would be concerned about unborn babies, as he would be concerned about their mothers.

When I was growing up and attending Mass with my family, my mom, who if she were still here would be next in line for the Pope, really drilled home the idea of the New Testament being a New Covenant between God and his people. I firmly believe that. Not that I discount the OT, but I do give far more weight to the NT and the behaviors and teachings of Christ.

I really would prefer that people refer to themselves as Christ-like, rather than Christian, because it discounts all those other people who do not worship the Trinity, but who have kindness and goodness in their souls. You can't tell me Ghandi didn't go to Heaven.

[AngryOldDem]

9. No, mine doesn't,

but that doesn't mean there aren't enough to begin one if someone so gets the urge.

I completely understand your view. I will not impose my personal morality onto a situation I know nothing about, and on a person whose shoes I am not in. That is between them, their conscience, and their God. All I can do is be there and offer support, however it is needed.

And as far as those who are "pro-life" yet pro-death penalty, I can think of no bigger hypocrisy, and no bigger way to totally discredit whatever message they are trying to push.

I know -- how "anti-Catholic" of me.

[happynewyear]

13. my Archdiocese offers counseling

for women that have had abortions. Now how about that!

:kick:

[AngryOldDem]

15. Ours has something similar as well

Still very new, but good to see nonetheless.

In fact, my parish is having a prayer service for unborn babies who have been lost through miscarriage and abortion next Wednesday. Someone from the Life office is going to speak. It should be a very moving -- and hopefully healing -- evening.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. That's very good, and I hope the Church as a whole will

reach out more to those who "lose" an unborn child as well as to those who choose abortion. Society gives scarce comfort to those grieving prenatal deaths or even children who die at birth. I guess that's a natural concequence of widespread acceptance of abortion on demand but it's very hurtful to those who experienced the death of children who were very much wanted.

[demosincebirth]

14. Our parish has pro-life group that is very active, but its a...

pro-life group against the Death Penalty in the U.S. They have a banner in front of the church, mourning the 900+ executions since the death penalty was re-instated.

[UrbScotty]

17. Not that I know of

Our parish is in Grand Rapids' West Side, one of the most liberal areas of West Michigan.

Plus, I think the pastor is liberal. ;-)

[DemBones DemBones]

18. I think it's sad that "liberal" has come to be equated with

"supports abortion." If we as liberals oppose war and capital punishment, why should we support abortion, other than if absolutely necessary to save the mother's life, which is quite rare, and perhaps for rape/incest victims? Modern society is long on "rights" for individuals, short on morality.

[UrbScotty]

19. I'm not saying Father supports abortion

Like almost every Catholic priest, he opposes abortion; he called it a sin of humanity, just like war, etc. I too believe abortion should only take place in certain instances.

When I say I think he's liberal, I'm not saying he is against abortion. I'm referring to, among other things:

• He endorsed the (de facto) Democratic candidate for Grand Rapids (remember that while churches may not endorse candidates, priests may);
  
• He criticized the way Ronald Reagan's death was mourned far more than that of Ray Charles a few days later
  
• He reprinted a letter from St. Cloud's bishop criticizing talk of denying the Eucharist to people who support abortion, gay rights, etc.
  

The list goes on and on.

[Midlodemocrat]

20. I don't necessarily agree with that.

I consider myself to be extremely liberal, but I am personally against abortion, yet politically pro-choice. I don't think I should make that determination for someone. I have never been in a situation where I needed to obtain an abortion, but I know many, many people who have and I can't condemn them, for I have not walked in their shoes.

[ElectroPrincess]

21. Yes, I fully agree ...

I'm now a member of a different parish - but I first was Baptized (1996) in the Chapel on Quantico MCB. I also did my RCIA on base. Because folks were quite lively and bold, plus we happened to have a very tolerant Franciscan (Visiting priest), three other classmates and myself (attending RCIA) really "got into it" one Sunday Afternoon.

It was on the "Pro Life" Issue of course. And like you, I'm politically pro-choice because I believe in the separation of Church and state.

We were really arguing back and forth to the entertainment of our visiting priest. Really, he was smiling and taking this all in like a hearty meal. Finally, totally outnumbered and shouted down, I said in desperation, "OK OK, I tell you what? - I'll go with you to stand outside an Abortion Clinic if an equal number of times you come with me to light a candle and say prayers for those who are to be executed." :wow:

Too Funny! That ended the argument at a "stale mate" and no one on the other side ever took me up on my offer.

I love the Catholic faith and practice (personally and encourage my Daughter) to believe in pro-life in every way. It's just that a number of my fellow parishioners want to change the law to mirror Catholic tenets. IMO that's not a good thing, i.e., mixing secular laws with Church doctrine. :scared: