Open for questions everyone :-)

[steve2470]

As I said several weeks ago, I'm open for questions. If I cannot answer, I'll say so. I'll at least point you in the right direction. Post questions about mental health here.

[Droopy]

1. What is the best thing to say to someone who is considering suicide?

I've been suicidal in the past, but I really can't think of anything to say to someone who is feeling that way. At least something that will make them want to live. In my case medication helped out a great deal. But I don't know if telling someone that they need meds is the best way of talking them out of suicide.

The reason I ask is that I know someone who is suicidal. She's doing better know, but still has suicidal thoughts and says that if things don't go her way in the future then she will see suicide as a valid option. I've talked to her at length about this and I've given her a number to a suicide prevention hotline. I don't know what else to do.

[steve2470]

2. #1 - See if she has any kind of spirituality that would prohibit suicide

#2- Ask her about how her family and friends and kids would take it.
#3- Try to refer her to counseling or to a psychiatrist.
#4 - Tell her what gives you hope for living each day.

Beyond that, I don't know. If she gets seriously suicidal and will not go to a psych hospital, you can call the police and they can take her there against her will. She really needs to be seeing a psychiatrist regularly and also a counselor. The doctor will talk to her about medication, and so will the counselor. Good luck. I hope she cooperates with you.

[mopinko]

3. why don't therapists believe in neurochemistry

i mean, talking helps a lot, but when someone's brain is out of whack, what is the point of allowing them to dwell in their delusions? does this not just reinforce them?
they have their little talking hammer, and your illness looks like a nail to them. but sometimes, you need the screw gun. don't they teach them in shrink school to figure out if it is a nail before they get out their hammers?

[steve2470]

7. Some of us do believe in it

I do. Meds and therapy are usually the best combination, but I never pressure clients to take meds.

[TommyO]

27. Just met with my therapist this morning

(after a four year absence). The first thing he recommended, knowing my history, was to get my butt down to my Primary and get back on the anti-depressants. So, not all therapists are against meds.

[Kashka-Kat]

4. who are you?

why should we ask you questions? do you want to ask me a question?

(to elaborate--my own personal philosophy is everyone is an expert, everyone is a teacher, as well as a student in this thing called life.()

[steve2470]

6. I'm a MHP. I'm just trying to be helpful nt

[knowbody0]

5. so,

do you believe the mental health care professionals are ever going to comprehend and include the Eastern philosophy of mind, body, spirit and soul as a whole?

[steve2470]

8. I think it's happening very very slowly

I think there is more Eastern thinking on the west coast of the US than anywhere else.

[knowbody0]

9. you may be right

i was skeptical about therapy, but luckily found a therapist who actually encourages meditation, yoga, organic suppliments, and reading.

[mopinko]

10. how important is sleep?

is it the chicken, or the egg?

[steve2470]

11. sleep is vitally important

chicken, egg, I have no clue

[DemExpat]

12. Seems to be growing evidence that people in our societies are

suffering from chronic lack of good sleep, and I am convinced that this has great effect on physical and mental health.

I see it not as a chicken or egg issue, but more in the philosophy of Yin and Yang, (opposing forces pulling at a balanced center), of health being a balance of many factors.....

I read one book that says in order to "catch up" on vital rest and sleep, one must get abundant quality sleep (8-10 hours!) for at least a month (or two!) before balance is resumed. Forgot the name of this book...:-(

DemEx

[mopinko]

13. i think sometimes it is chicken, and sometimes egg

til someone proves otherwise to me, i stick by my contention that my hubby's main problem is that he needs to fix his deviated septum. perhaps wishful thinking, as everyone seems to think. but when you have a clearcut physical cause for bad sleep, you ought to at least assume it is a chicken until sleep is restored.
i agree with the timeline you cite. it took about a month for good sleep to sink in and chase the aches and pains of fibro. i could almost feel it seeping into my body and mind.

[DemExpat]

14. Yes, I would consider his septum causing breathing problems

while sleeping a chicken....:-)

By not seeing it as chicken or egg I mean that in some people physical imbalances can cause sleeping problems causing mantal imbalances, while in others, or in the same person at another time, mental worries can cause sleep disturbances/physical ills....etc.etc.
That's what I mean by not looking at it as chicken or egg, that there is not one cause that fits all cases...

Sleep, though, is really very important IMO.

:hi:

DemEx

[mopinko]

15. agree

but i am seeing that doctors in general kind of look at sleep the way they look at nutriton. they know it has something to do with many things, but i don't think they feel like there is anything they can do about it. there are no good pills to fix it, and the things that people can do about their sleep hygiene do not seem like practicing medicine to them. more like mothering or nagging, and they don't like to do that.

[DemExpat]

16. Well, I am definitely not one to look at all health problems medically....

which is why I do look at life-style, nutrition, sleep, social support network, along with past experiences and patterns, and use Complementary healing in any case I can (Herbs, Homeopathy, vitamin/mineral supplements, for example).

:hi:

DemEx

[TrogL]

26. Sleep Nazis

Many people do just fine on four hours sleep. More than that and they get slugglish and unproductive. Doctors will prescribe sleeping pills so they will be comatose for the required "magic" number of hours and useless for the rest of the day.

[mopinko]

28. pills are only part

i just find it stupid that people who are suffering don't get a sleep study. i agree that the approach of many docs is a little lip service, some guilt, and a pill. but having just gotten a handle on sleep, i can tell you that it is THE miracle drug.
and the thing is, my problem is a tiny remnant of a childhood injury, and my hubby has a deviated septum. and over such tiny things, we have been in hell. he always survived on 4-6 hours of sleep, and felt groggy if he got more. but that is a symptom right there. it takes at least a few weeks of good sleep to get right again.

[mopinko]

17. how do you handle the families of patients?

privacy concerns are such an issue today. and families can get into such knots. i don't think you serve a patient to completely accept their version of reality, and yet you have to build trust. maybe input from the family would give you a better picture, and maybe it would muddy it. different therapists handle it different ways. what is your approach?

[steve2470]

19. Depends on the client

Some clients, thank God, tell you everything you need to know. Some don't. Some won't consent to sign releases to talk to their family and/or friends. If they won't consent, you're stuck legally and ethically into working only with them or referring them to someone else.

[EFerrari]

23. WFSAD (Canadian) has this great model

called "Families as partners in care".

This link should work. I think it's a bit of genius because it calls up the strengths of families, makes us into a team -- rather than focusing on the little, short terms troubles.

http://www.world-schizophrenia.org/activities/fpc/index.html

[mopinko]

39. but, but, but confidentiality!!!

yeah, could the whole thing be more obvious? can you help someone if you have no idea if the family situation they are complaining about is even real? i dunno. i do know that i now do have a yardstick for what to look for in a therapist- how do they deal with the family. if they give you that "it is necessary to build a therapeutic relationship without outside influence" crap, run. if they are not professional enough to sort out information and foster honest relationships, they are not professional enough, imho.

[mopinko]

18. someone must have used sleep as therapy by now

if i ran the world, any psych admission would include a sleep study, and scrupulous sleep hygiene, and a focus on correct a presentation with impaired sleep. dumping stuff into the worlds greatest pharma factory as a first step seems just stupid to me.
i have seen nothing but lip service to sleep in my way to many encounters with people with d's after their names. but i can't be the first person to think this. has it been tried, and how does it work?

[steve2470]

20. I don't know, to be honest

Sleep studies, to my knowledge, are not routinely done anywhere, and they do cost clients money, unfortunately. $ is always an issue in this world of ours.

[mopinko]

21. true dat about money

but it doesn't seem like it would take a lot of money to wire up someone who is already in a bed. and would sure be cost effective.

[EFerrari]

22. What a great gesture.

Thank you, Steve. Means a lot to those of us who muddle along with inadequate support. 'Way to build the network.

:hi:

[steve2470]

24. You're very welcome.

:-)

[undergroundpanther]

25. What is sanity?

Taken out of a cultural trappings like job or appearances or whsatever

What IS Sanity?

And what is your thoughts on the recent article stating self deception leads to more happiness?
http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030725-000002.html
http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19950701-000022.html

http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/musings/liclass.php

How do you think civilization process and the fact we are forced to live in a very specific way ..A life conditioned,from cradle to grave and this "normal life " fantasy is pushed upon us until we decide to reject it or swallow it ..affects us?

How much of a role do you think evironmental toxins effect our mental healyth and why are doctors stuck on the individualand family and the use of drugs and"addituude adjustments" as the sources to fix all his own suffering so much?
http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/

Why do you think that is?

And why are the social effects of trauma still being minimized or neglected by most mainstream therapists or by the psych industry (even Frued chickened out on this issue)when it comes to assesing or even seeing the collected effects of everyones traumas that are put upon individuals as oopossibly having effects on our culture or our political processes itself?

This guy asked that question

http://www.psychohistory.com/

And do you think massive childhood traumas of various severity inflicted on so many kids growing up in America might have something to do with this mass mental illness issue and our failure to figure out how to relate to one another?

[steve2470]

33. Sanity = "effective perception of reality "

I know, reality is debatable.

I think a small amount of self-deception is ok, but past that fuzzy line is the risk of denying important realities that will affect one long term.

Everyone has the choice of how much they want to conform to society. Some reject it completely and either live away from others or just "deal with" the consequences. Others go to the opposite extreme and end up empty and superficial. Both extremes have advantages. Take your pick. Or one can conform somewhat but rebel in small ways that preserves your uniqueness. Overconformity definitely stunts growth and tends to produce symptoms.

Environmental toxins are real and do affect one's brain chemistry. It's just easier for the psychiatrists to ignore them. Frankly, most clients I've met are more worried about other concerns, with all due respect.

In my 20 years in the mental health profession (all on the East coast of the USA, admittedly), very very few people are concerned about larger issues beyond themselves and their families. 99.99% of my clients just want to feel better and to get the hell out of therapy. I've heard and read that on the West coast and in large cities, such as NYC and LA, that more clients want to explore those issues. You cannot "force" a client that is paying up to $400 an hour (in some areas) to address issues beyond themselves and their immediate families. Sad but true.

I think the cutback in mental health funding, the stigma against openly addressing MH issues, and the overall pathology and alienation in our society produce symptoms in clients. Again, being a pragmatist, the client sitting in front of you usually isn't too worried about societal alienation and just wants to feel better. It's up to lobbying groups and other social groups to address the other issues. A huge issue in this country is the lack of healthy spirituality or at the bare minimum having a healthy set of secular values. Again, you cannot force clients to address spiritual issues. They will leave therapy if you "make them" too uncomfortable. Harsh realities.

[undergroundpanther]

42. Thoughts on Sanity

I know, reality is debatable.


Agreed!!!

From my experience reality has no real fixed interpretation other than what most people agree it is. I mean most people have agreed a double yellow line on a road means no passing..So you see a double yellow line you do not swerve into oncoming traffic lanes even when it's 3 am and there are no cars for miles and you haven't seen any for a half hour..

I think a small amount of self-deception is ok, but past that fuzzy line is the risk of denying important realities that will affect one long term.

That too has a funny consequence if you think on it.

I have read in psych books that people that feel a kinda dysthymia depression tend to see things more as they really are...I gotta ask this :If seeing things as they really are and not how everyone wants or "agrees " to see it means a low level depression..what does it say about the way things*are*? A family can pretend all is hunky dory and omit the idea that the drunk in the house is a tyrant and abuse never happened etc. And a person by will of denial and pressure to conform to the agreed upon lies will suppress the truth.that their home life sucked..and still the truth comes out in other ways dissociation,bodily/health problems like ulcers or something called an 'asset' in our culture like,a drive to be popular, an overweening ambition.Or it seeps out after the person is AWAY from the people that reinforced the agreed upon denial or lie about reality..Hence a kind of"culture shock".

I wonder if all of us here were all of a sudden dropped off into a new culture.. A dramatic difference,like a primitive rain forest tribe..I wonder would we all look insane to them? We might as well be..as we rambled on about cars computers and all the stuff we knew was real to us and could not hunt,or build a hut or even eat the right fruits..


Everyone has the choice of how much they want to conform to society. Some reject it completely and either live away from others or just "deal with" the consequences. Others go to the opposite extreme and end up empty and superficial. Both extremes have advantages. Take your pick. Or one can conform somewhat but rebel in small ways that preserves your uniqueness. Over conformity definitely stunts growth and tends to produce symptoms.

Agreed..but than again I see people waffle between conforming when the stress gets too much and rebelling when the conformity gets too stifling..Think Robert Jay Lifton's Protean mind book....

Environmental toxins are real and do affect one's brain chemistry. It's just easier for the psychiatrists to ignore them. Frankly, most clients I've met are more worried about other concerns, with all due respect.

Well It's hard to face up to chemicals especially when we are taught we can't fight back,that corporations are invulnerable. I have to wonder who in the hell would call mercury based amalgam in your teeth bathed in acids and sometimes even hydrochloric acid(if you ever get sick) is sane? Mercury is what made mad hatters go mad you know.. And everyday the Mercury leaches into us from our teeth. Is is sane or not sane to deliberately put mercury in your mouth? Is it sane or not sane to put Thimerosol in vaccines? This shit all adds up to the toxin loads on your body.PCB's and fake hormones in plastics,Heavy metals,exitotoxins,allergic responses.. And if it messes up the body it messes up the brain too.

I went for inhalant allergy tests,and they gave me like 300 needles in my arms to test for what I was allergic to. I had a severe reactions to roach poop,I flew into a rage. Elm tree pollen and lambs quarters made me suicidal and twitchy.I kid you not.Both times I had to be given antidote after a few minutes because I was in danger of hurting myself or someone else.It all was rather jaw dropping and dramatic.And I was not in control of it.It freaked me out too.The allergen doc said this sometimes happens to patients.And people get emotional freak outs based on allergens.

In my 20 years in the mental health profession (all on the East coast of the USA, admittedly), very very few people are concerned about larger issues beyond themselves and their families.


Could that be a SYMPTOM of our cultural sickness? The SANITY sickness? The Normal illness?



99.99% of my clients just want to feel better and to get the hell out of therapy. I've heard and read that on the West coast and in large cities, such as NYC and LA, that more clients want to explore those issues. You cannot "force" a client that is paying up to $400 an hour (in some areas) to address issues beyond themselves and their immediate families. Sad but true.

And couldn't that be why therapy fails so often?Fails the individual and society and it fails at improving the agreements we make as a society that make up what any given population says is"reality".
Wouldn't you say this self concerned bubble is a bit well,sociopath?A bit of the real problem of why NOTHING ever gets better?

I think the cutback in mental health funding, the stigma against openly addressing MH issues, and the overall pathology and alienation in our society produce symptoms in clients.

Yep and letting them hide in their bubbles and be cowards isn't helping anyone.


Again, being a pragmatist, the client sitting in front of you usually isn't too worried about societal alienation and just wants to feel better.

Yep and also getting them out of their own heads can help them too.
If they can afford to pay 400 bucks a session they are not doing all that bad,they might be stressed and it might be because they do not see death,failure and the need to move out of themselves. Some people on the other hand might really be suffering too.

It's up to lobbying groups and other social groups to address the other issues.

And what are lobbying groups made of ? People people with Normal illness in their little bubbles throwing money at a problem and schmoozing in washington rather than getting their hands dirty..

A huge issue in this country is the lack of healthy spirituality or at the bare minimum having a healthy set of secular values.


Spirituality or secular human values cannot fix a person who does not question a society that is so normal and in such sane agreement on rewarding the socialized sociopaths among us and the selfishness in us rather than the human spirit and empathic heart that cries out for the want of giving.

Again, you cannot force clients to address spiritual issues. They will leave therapy if you "make them" too uncomfortable. Harsh realities.
Than let them go.Let them fall,let them skin their ass.
Reality and the unconscious has a way of waking up cowards.

And if you really wanna get radical...

Think of all the bullshit going on in Washington... the corruption the lies,the war,the propaganda,the games, religion and corporations out of control,all the psy-ops and criminality sexual abuse,...Could it be we as a species are calling forth our own social shadow side to skin our ass and pop the bubbles we mistakenly agreed were so damn important so we can find our hearts and each other again? Could it take the collapse of civilization as we know it and a dire threat to our very survival and the survival of the earth itself to get us to give a shit? Is planetary anthro-suicide really just a cry to get out of this cage? This cage none of us asked to be born into,but were, and were from birth coerced to agree with the very things that bind us here in misery and self deception?


I am beginning to think this may be so.

Thoughts?

[Sugarbleus]

29. What is Borderline Personality Disorder and

How are some ways it can manifest itself in a person afflicted??

I think my Adult daughter has this disorder along with ADHD (adult deficit)

[steve2470]

30. wow big question

There are many good websites on BPD. Just do a google search on "borderline personality disorder" and you'll get good answers. If you have a question after that, let me know. Good luck.

[EFerrari]

31. Opening mouth, inserting foot.

A really good site to learn about BPD is Patty Pheil's site, Mental Health Matters.

www.mental-health-matters.com


BPDCentral is run by a PR professional who transformed herself into an expert over night and has a lot of MISinformation, and really isn't much more than a cash cow.


My little group has been very quiet lately but if you'd like to sub and wake us up, feel free to PM me.

[Sugarbleus]

32. Thanks all. I went and did that google search.

I found some good info. I also finally found a support group for Parents/families of children with BPD.

I think my daughter suffers from this along with possible ADHD. We used to think she had bi-polar, I don't think that's part of her diagnosis anymore.

Thank you much :hug:

Booking this thread for future reference :)

[steve2470]

34. here is the "safest" and "most official" site......

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm


Once you go from that site, you must be aware that sometimes opinion gets in the way of "fact". Some opinions are solidly based but others are not. Be careful. This caveat goes for all mental health sites.

[Sugarbleus]

35. Thank you steve...I've looked at several since I posted.

I've actually looked at mental health sites in the past wondering what disorder MIGHT be plaguing my daughter. I have looked into NIMH and NAMI several times over the years.

There were only three that fit the bill to one degree or another: Bi-polar, adult ADHD, and BPD. All of which therapists, at different times over the years, have suspected my daughter suffers from.

I guess I was wondering if anyone living with any of the above disorders/diseases could explain what it's like.

Daughter has no insurance, but even if she did, I can't FORCE her to seek help.

One thing I've come to understand all too well is that our mental health system is not working well for far too many people. It's no better than the general healthcare services are for the poor: 'We'll cover this, but we won't cover that'...mantra

Thanks for caring Steve. It's been a very very trying week.

Best regards to you, SB :hug:

[TrogL]

36. I'll bite

Can Effexor XR cause obsessive/compulsive problems or rapid cycling bipolar to get worse?

[steve2470]

37. I don't know. Effexor is still new to me. Sorry nt

[no name no slogan]

40. Dunno if this helps, but

I was on Effexor XR for about five years until recently. I also took a small dose of Lithium every day (600mg) because I have a slight bit of anxiety that goes with my depression. I'm off the Effexor as of mid-May, but I'm still taking the lithium, along with Cymbalta and Trazodone.

Hope this helps.

[mopinko]

38. how do you get someone to realize they need help?

seems like the more they need it, the more they fight it. challenging people's delusions seems to make them dig in deeper. when you get upset, they feel scared. bad snowball. unless they are 100% raving and incoherent, you, the one who is upset, tend to look like the one with a problem. trying to function with someone who cannot make simple decisions is impossible. short of throwing them out, what can you do?

[steve2470]

41. Sorry for the slow response.

Sometimes it's impossible. I hate to say this, but sometimes people have to reach a very painful place before they will consider help. Of course, I don't advocate "throwing people to the wolves" but usually you cannot drag people into treatment, unless you court order them. Even then, sometimes court-ordered treatment fails. Do what you can, and then pray a lot, seriously.