Do you know anybody who just seems totally helpless/self desctructive?

[BuelahWitch]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine last night, a guy in his early/mid 30s. He was going through a major depression and we were discussing what he could do to make his life better.

My friend grew up in the Mormon church and his family is still quite connected to it. He's in crisis mode because he's come to a point in his life where he doesn't know who he is, doesn't know what he wants, he just knows he's not happy with the way things are. As long as I've known him he's let friends, relatives and associates run roughshod over him, doing everything from borrowing large sums of money they never pay back to inviting themselves to move into his house (another incident of this type happened about a month ago. A woman he met on the internet decided she was going to move in with him, just like that. I asked him when did they make the decision for her to move from her home 500 miles away into his, and he said, "Well, she decided.")

During our conversation I told him he needed to get hold of his own life, and decide what he wants. Then at least he can feel that he's the one in control and not mommy, daddy, big sis or random friends and acquaintences. He asked me, "How do you do that?" I was kind of at a loss. I said I can't decide what he wants for him, he has to think about it and decide for himself. Then he said that he wished he could just live in a place where people made all the decisions for him, told him what to do all the time. This frustrated me, and I said, "But that's the problem! People have been doing that all your life and look where it's got you?" The man is 33 years old, has a bachelor's degree and is just totally helpless.

I really love my friend, but sometimes I wonder if he isn't somewhat content with things the way they are. He says he's got a shrink, but of course, I don't know if he's trying to work this out. I'm afraid he's going to do himself in during one of his black periods (he was talking about it last night), which is why I'm posting here.

[knowbody0]

1. i had a friend like that

and waited until it was no longer "crisis" time and let her know how i felt. (8 year friendship with the same behavior as you describe) i told her how draining the relationship had become for me and that though i loved her unconditionally i no longer would permit her to complain about her life to me. that i believed it to be against the laws of harmony to spread your dread.
my "preaching" catapulted her into her spiritual journey and enlightenment. she's more than fine today and often brings up my lecture with laughter and a lightness of being that is contagious.
good luck to you and your friend.
peace and love

[shrike]

2. I agree with knowbody0

A little shock therapy might be in order here. Or tough love, as they call it.

Has your friend been evaluated, by a psychiatrist, physician, etc.? I'm not a professional, but depression can cause some of his indecision. There is a chronic depressive condition called dysthymia -- sort of like a low-grade fever. Every so often it flares up into major depression.

OTOH, your friend may also have some very bad habits he needs to break. And it's up to him to break them.

[Bluerthanblue]

3. learned helplessness

isn't something that is easily 'unlearned'. While i can clearly understand your frustration- and have shared it, what he is doing he's doing because he cannot, or does not know how to live differently.

You question whether he's 'content' with the way things are, and it is obvious that he is not- the black moods are evidence positive of that- but many of us who get stuck in bad places, STAY in bad places for a multitude of complicated, and often deep seated reasons. There is some 'comfort' in the familiar, even when the familiar is hell- why we stay with spouses who hurt us, why we lie about abuse, and would rather stay in our 'families' even if we risk death on a daily basis, the unknown is often scarier, and sometimes IS if not 'worse' than nearly as bad- and more frightening because strangers are the ones hurting us, and one more piece of 'hope' is chipped away at the dream that life could possibly be 'ok'.

No offense meant to any of the Mormon faith- but that in itself is a 'red flag' for me- Many children of heavily religious families grow up believing that 'taking charge' of their life is something to be avoided at all costs- and that having any 'ego' or self-worth is evil. The 'rules' in life may have been clearly defined for him as a child, but as an adult, the rules don't work- and people DO take advantage of each other- You'd be surprised how many young men end up in the military because of their inability to make choices that they feel un-equipped to handle.

I'm NOT a shrink- but i've been under the care of one for several years- my 'gut' tells me that your friend has been taught that he is only valued for what he 'does' not because he IS. He's also been encouraged NOT to think or act 'for himself' because that would mean questioning 'dogma,and authority'.

First and foremost, i would encourage you to tell him that you love him- just as he is, and that it hurts you to see him in pain. It hurts you even more to not be able to help him- but his 'dream' of living in a world where he's told what to do, is not living- it is simply existing. And it is not insurance against doing something wrong, or bad, or messing up- just because someone else is 'calling the shots' doesn't absolve him from his place in the world-

Having stood on the edge of life and death more times than i like to admit- the Epiphany i recently had, was that suicide (for me) is the ultimate and frighteningly profound evidence that what i TRULY want is to have ULTIMATE 'control' - of my life- whether that control is to continue it, or to end it. The last refuge of one who feels caught in a world where far too many 'decisions' have been massive mistakes, or where we had only the 'illusion' of control- and believed that any 'bad' thing was due to our 'choice'(stupidity, ineptitude, or just plain 'evil-nature') but any positive occurrence was a 'freak accident'-

Your friend is lucky to have someone who cares- He needs to free himself to make decisions- and some of them WILL be 'bad' ones, but that is a fact of life- what will help him most of all is to know that even when he tries and fails, he is still 'worthy'- and just stepping out on his own, is success in itself.

I share your concern that he may indeed claim 'control' of what has been his life- and use that control to avoid any further uncertainty, disappointment, loss, or suffering. I hope he learns at his age, that there is so much of life left to be lived, things to be seen, people to meet, experiences to 'taste' and savor. I wouldn't want simply 'exist'- but need to embrace life fully- in ALL it's pleasure and pain- having known excruciating physical pain, we learn to treasure days of feeling ok - like how delicious water can taste after a very long thirst, or the incredible flavor that a saltine cracker can have when you haven't eaten in days- How good a shower can feel- or a few hours of peaceful sleep- so many 'ordinary' things, that we learn to take for granted, but make up what is truly 'living'.

I'm rambling on here- but as for 'knowing yourself' most of us, if we're honest, don't really know who we are. We all have many 'roles' we assume in life, and the pace and pressure of this society exists (i believe) in part, to keep us from having to stop and 'think'- to question ourselves- and our actions. To look at what is truly important, and life giving, and not simply 'busy work'-

This likely doesn't help much- i wish there were something i could do or say- keep loving him- encourage him to 'step out'- even if that means stepping into a pile of shit- it's movement- (literally) and shit has it's value in the 'big picture'-

wishing you both, peace and comfort- wishing us all that-
blu

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

4. Ask "O.K., so what are you prepared to do about it???"

I changed over to a reality therapist a few years ago who refused to let me wallow in my problems, harping on them over and over again.
He lets me vent the problem, then hits me with that darned question, then silence.
It doesn't sound like your friend's shrink is doing him any favors by not pointing him toward action steps. Any step at all is good, no matter how small.
It's great you're being a good friend to him, but it sounds like he is really a "high maintenance" needy friend; I hope he returns the favor when you go to him with your issues. If not, it may be time to set down some boundaries. You need to take care of yourself first, before you can help others.
If he threatened suicide, you may want to call his shrink yourself to make sure the shrink is aware that things have gotten to that point. I wish I had, as my friend might still be here if I'd taken that step (she was "snowing" her therapist, using the sessions as a social hour chatting about happy stuff; what an actress!)
"he wished he could just live in a place where people made all the decisions for him, told him what to do all the time" - this quote concerned me the most, as the only place you can give up control like that is a hospital or prison, where everything from meals to sleep is scheduled for you. Neither of these are options - unless you're just plain lazy!
Good luck!

[Bluerthanblue]

5. sometimes standing still is doing something very difficult.

Sometimes people don't want to be 'fixed' they just want to be heard- not judged, not told 'how' to 'be' what they feel unable to 'be' in order to be seen as 'normal, or acceptable' in this society-

People who have no self esteem, or self-confidence, people who have been told that everything they do is wrong, or that they are incapable of anything but 'bad'- people from very 'pious' religious homes, who are told 'You don't feel that way' when in all honesty they DO 'feel that way' but have to deny it, or see it as some sort of evil, demonic 'part' of them don't want to make any decisions- because they don't trust themselves- and with good reason- they've been forced to live a lie, or only been 'valued' when they conformed to what was 'required' of them.

Many of this worlds most creative, insightful, and inspiring people are folks who many would clearly call 'crazy' or lazy- or any number of things-

I'm sorry about your friend- but believe me- as one who is well acquainted with suicide- if she was intent on killing herself, not one single thing in the world would have kept her here- except to live in a padded cell, with 24 hour surveillance for the rest of her life-

It's truly amazing how creative the mind can be at finding ways to quiet itself-

I do agree with you in that the OP needs to take care of herself- and while helping her friend to the best of her ability, and within what 'she' can safely handle (emotionally)- we can't 'save' anyone.
And we can't 'fix' anyone. Not in the long run- we can only 'be there' to the extent we are able. It's not up to us- sometimes it is not 'up' to anyone-

peace-
blu

[BuelahWitch]

8. He does and he has been there for me

Sorry, I haven't been back to see the thread I started. That's one thing that I like so much about him. He is one of the few people I met who is actually interested in other people. Most people do nothing but talk about themselves but not Eric.

He's got a sabbatical from his job coming up in December. We're thinking of getting together in January. I haven't seen him in over 4 years. WE just talk on the phone and IM.

I have thought about calling his shrink, but since i"m not family I don't know if she'd talk to me.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and input.

[Lilith Velkor]

6. Yeah, that's me.

Last time I tried to fix my life was a couple years ago, and it pretty much went to shit.

There was one thing that went different: I managed to keep a few friends. I have never had the experience of going to the Nut Hut without being totally abandoned before. That's pretty cool.

I also brightened up a bit after deciding I'm done with shrinks and meds for now. My main thing right now is figuring out a way to make enough $ to move out of Mom's. And me with no job for 3 fucking years.

This'll take a while.

[EFerrari]

7. My hubby used to come off that way and it really irritated people

But, he was on the very high functioning end of the autism spectrum! Nobody noticed it until we got married and I did because we are very close.

Even therapists used to get mad at him. So, for more than 40 years, he's been punished for compensating as well as he did.:eyes:

Doug needs day care "lite" but you'd never know it unless it was pointed out to you. Isn't that amazing?