I'm currently reading "Surviving Schizophrenia"

[Droopy]

by E. Fuller Torrey, M.D. The book was originally published in 1983 and it's in its fourth edition published in 2001. I'm about 50 pages into it and it's good reading so far. He has some interesting comments about the psychiatric industry as a whole and the origins of schizophrenia.

It's horrible the way the mentally ill were treated in the past and as recently as the last decade. In the early part of this century there was incidences where institutions kept their patients locked up without adequate sanitary services and completely without clothing. He describes cases as recently as 1990 where patients were kept in a home without adequate plumbing, never cleaning the place, and full of cockroaches. There was an incident where a patient had died and the corpse wasn't removed from the place for several weeks. There was another incident where a psychiatric hospital operated for a year without any doctors.

He has interesting things to say about the origin of schizophrenia. He thinks it is a rather recent phenomenon starting in perhaps the Middle Ages and not really seeing very many cases until the mid 19th century. There are sporadic cases where mental hospitals were set up before that time, but they really started picking up at around 1830. It could be that mentally ill people were cared for by their families before that time and with the increase in industrialization these care givers had to leave the home to work, thus not being able to take care of their ill family member. But the author thinks that there is something that is increasing the number of mentally ill people. By 1955 there were around 550,000 people in public mental hospitals. That number has decreased dramatically, but not due to there being less mentally ill people, but due to deinstitutionalization. More mentally ill people are taken care of by private hospitals and assisted living. And with the advances in psychiatry many mentally ill people are now able to live independently.

I'm on a part now where he talks about what people with schizophrenia sense when they are experiencing their symptoms. People talk about colors being more intense and inanimate objects taking on an ominous sense of animistic potential. People may seem to be more than they really are, like they are supernatural. It reminds me of when I was admitted into a hospital. The paramedics that took me there seemed to me to be alien creatures. I could not see the white of their eyes. The color of their eyes seemed to encompass their entire eyes. One had magnificently blue eyes and another a beautiful brown. Almost like they had marbles in their eye sockets. They seemed to me to have this knowing look on their faces like they knew everything. There seemed to be a light coming from somewhere that made them appear brighter and the background darker. Like they were glowing. And then the doctor gave me an anti-psychotic and knocked me out with tranquilizers.

So what do you think? Do you think mental illness is on the rise? I think it's possible that we might have the first mentally ill president. Has schizophrenia always been with us or is it a new phenomenon? What could be causing schizophrenia? Is it caused at birth due to complications? Is it genetic? Is it caused by other physiological or environmental problems?

[DemExpat]

1. Interesting post, Droopy.

What a long way we all have come in our treatment of the schizophrenic and psychotic - at least in the Western world, that is.



People talk about colors being more intense and inanimate objects taking on an ominous sense of animistic potential. People may seem to
be more than they really are, like they are supernatural. It reminds me of when I was admitted into a hospital. The paramedics that took me there seemed to me to be alien creatures. I could not see the white of their eyes. The color of their eyes seemed to encompass their entire eyes. One had magnificently blue eyes and another a beautiful brown. Almost like they had marbles in their eye sockets. They seemed to me to have this knowing look on their faces like they knew everything. There seemed to be a light coming from somewhere that made them appear brighter and the background darker. Like they were glowing. And then the doctor gave me an anti-psychotic and knocked me out with tranquilizers.

This reminds me of Aldous Huxley books I read way back in the 70s....hallucinations, spiritual awareness of man having the potential to drive him crazy without socially conditioned filters and shutting down of sensory perceptions....can't remember exactly what he wrote...
It also makes me think of the Carlos Castaneda books I read around that time too about the Mexican Shaman/peyote induced spiritual visions etc......

For all I know, some mental illnesses ARE a different "door to perception" that make it impossible to live in THIS reality of our world when opened.....

Maybe it is "caused" when stress overload opens these doors....

I firmly believe that it is incredibly complex, influenced perhaps by all of the things you mentioned above...and many, many more.

I read a book once on the Orthomolecular approach to mental illness - where imbalances were supposedly corrected by the ingestion of certain minerals/vitamins/amino acids...other things too....

I admit though, I have not studied Schizophrenia, so my knowledge is very limited.

What do you think, Droopy?

:hi:

DemEx

[Droopy]

2. Well I can't really speak but from my own experience

Although I've met a few people with schizophrenia before. I met one woman who would talk to people who weren't there. Well, at least she was the only one who could see them. :) It was at a hospital where I met her. I went into the ward's lounge and she was sitting there alone having a conversation. She wouldn't talk too loud, just barely above a whisper. I sat down and turned down the tv to see what she was saying. I couldn't make anything out so I said, "Hey, how ya doin," to try to strike up a conversation with her. She shyly said she was fine, blushed, smiled and then left the room. Everywhere this woman went she was talking to someone who wasn't there just like a normal person would when talking to somebody who is present, but she wouldn't talk to anybody who was really there.

As far as the causes of schizophrenia, I think I know what caused it in me, but I'm not really sure. I used to experiment with psychedelic drugs when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I had read a lot about supposedly spiritual experiences that some people had while taking psychedelics like mushrooms, peyote and LSD. I wanted to see what it was all about. I can't say that I ever really had a spiritual experience, but there was something that would happen to me sometimes where reality seemed more real. Colors would seem more intense, anything above a whisper seemed like shouting, my mind would settle and be quiet, a general sense of peace and well being would come over me. That all changed one night when I was 20. I went over to a friends house who said he had some LSD. When I got there he told me it was strong stuff and asked me how much I'd like to take. I told him two hits. He asked me if I was sure and I told him yeah. Everything was fine for a couple of hours. I was having some pretty intense visual hallucinations, though. Then I started to become paranoid. This steadily increased until I thought that the person I was tripping with wanted to hurt me in some way. I got up to leave and he asked where I was going. I said I was going outside and he asked me to hand him his jacket. It was a heavy leather jacket and I picked it up and slung it at him as hard as I could and then went outside. It was about 5 degrees outside and I forgot to get my jacket, but I couldn't feel the cold. My friend talked me down, though, and assured me that he wasn't going to hurt me. After a few more hours I went home and I felt horribly depressed and my mind was reeling with paranoia. That's when I became ill. It would be another 9 years until I got the treatment I needed and my illness in that time would get steadily worse. It's really a miracle that I'm here to speak to you right now.

Now there are a couple of things that could have happened. Either it was the LSD that damaged my brain and made me ill or it was the stress of a bad trip that triggered a latent illness. I don't know if mental illness runs in my family. My dad is an alcoholic and has had depression for all of his adult life. I have a great aunt who was unable to live on her own and who never married, but I don't know if she was ever diagnosed with a mental illness. I'm inclined to believe that it was something that was already there and was triggered. I started to change from a happy-go-lucky kid when I was about 16 to a more serious minded withdrawn person by the time I was 18. I'm thinking that the bad trip just hastened the inevitable.

I have to leave for work now. I'll write more when I get back.

[DemExpat]

3. I tend to think that the drugs "open the door"

to inherent weaknesses, but that without the drugs the illness might not have happened at all (in this form, that is).

Lots (all?) of adolescents go through the change from happy-go-lucky child to dealing with existential angst, which, if the child has social support to approach for advice, will work through and come out of the period a stronger person on the road to adulthood. imo.

My experiences with soft drugs (hash) and a couple of hallucinatory drugs like LSD and mescaline in the late 60s/early 70s also sent me spiralling into a downward spin into mental hell....:-(

Paranoia - I had a period where I could not watch television because I felt that every single thing that was said was purposely being transmitted to manipulate me! How is that for having an inflated EGO? :D I can joke about it now....

I am not such a fan of legalizing all drugs because of my and many others who I met in therapies' experiences triggered by drug use.
Alcohol too....
It is not so innocent to play with our nervous systems as some want us to believe. Or at least for a percentage of the population....

I strongly discouraged my own kids from experimenting, and I was honest about why....

I once read a book by a follower of Rudolf Steiner (Anthroposophy) who stated that drug use in late-childhood/early adulthood opened one's psyche/mind to states of being that were inappropriate for the age - that in cultures where drug use is always in groups under guidance by experienced partakers - the dangers are minimized and only the expanded awareness and heightened senses/visions/spiritual truths perhaps were experienced. I can identify with what he said about drug-taking of youths....

:hug:

DemEx

[Droopy]

4. Well

It's one thing to go through a temporary illness and then get better without any intervention and another to be hopelessly lost in an illness and not to be able to come out of it without intervention. Drug use may induce states similar to schizophrenia or other illnesses but the user usually comes back to reality. Sometimes it might take a little time but it usually happens. People who have taken LSD for instance and then developed schizophrenia I think have something else going on in their brains that is abnormal. That night that I took those two hits of acid, the person who was with me also took the same dosage and he didn't develop any mental problems because of it.

Which brings me to something that I've been interested in for a while. What causes schizophrenia? I've read a few things about it and seen a tv show that said in a scientific experiment it showed that people with schizophrenia have abnormally shaped brains. I don't remember the details, but the idea is that schizophrenia is a physical illness. I'd love to see what imaging technology would reveal about my brain.

If schizophrenia is a physical illness that would mean that there is a gene that is involved in the creation of the brain that is making life rough for some people. Is there a schizophrenia gene or is it due to some mutation or damage of a particular gene? And if schizophrenia is genetic, why does it appear only recently in human history? Is schizophrenia a part of an evolutionary pattern? Are we evolving into crazy people? Or is it a part of some great spiritual design? I've read in one of those hippie books that I was telling you about that they considered people who were schizophrenic not to be ill, but to be awakening to a greater reality. Then there is a theory in psychiatry that says that humans come equipped with some kind of filter in their brains that allows them to filter out most external stimuli and focus on the task at hand. When this filter breaks down the result is that the brain is bombarded with stimuli and the afflicted person can't sort out all of the incoming information and we have schizophrenia.

[DemExpat]

5. I find this fascinating too, Droopy.

What causes schizophrenia? I've read a few things about it and seen a tv show that said in a scientific experiment it showed that people with schizophrenia have abnormally shaped brains. I don't remember the details, but the idea is that schizophrenia is a physical illness. I'd love to see what imaging technology would reveal about my brain.

I would not doubt that the brains are shaped differently in schizophrenia, but then I always wonder if in cases like this the brain was ALWAYS abnormally shaped, or after the symptoms developed.
Because I also can imagine that physical shape changes follow psychological/psychic changes in a person...."What comes first, the chicken or the egg?"

If schizophrenia is a physical illness that would mean that there is a gene that is involved in the creation of the brain that is making life rough for some people.

There very well may be genetic propensity for developing schizophrenia, or even a genetic certainty that it will...but in your case I would guess that the drug ingestion triggered it - no telling whether you would or would not have developed it if you had not ingested the mind-altering drugs...imo.



Is there a schizophrenia gene or is it due to some mutation or damage of a particular gene?

Living in a world full of man-made substances and compounds - many perhaps more toxic/allergen than we may think - could have impact on our genetic makeup.
The othomeolcular approach to mental illness also has the premise that because of toxins and loss of nutrients from intensive agricultural methods depleting the soil, imbalances/shortages of vitamins/minerals/other nutrients cause increase in illnesses.


And if schizophrenia is genetic, why does it appear only recently in human history?
Could be a particular genetic makeup that was always there that only recently with environmental stresses gets triggered to overload or become an illness....


Is schizophrenia a part of an evolutionary pattern? Are we evolving into crazy people? Or is it a part of some great spiritual design? I've read in one of those hippie books that I was telling you about that they considered people who were schizophrenic not to be ill, but to be awakening to a greater reality.

Yes, this also ties in with the Carlos Casteneda books and old traditional cultures using drugs to open the doors to this greater reality....
Others talk of evolution of future states of consciousness that will be totally different from the one we now call "normal"....

In a more general context I do think that mental illness is a sign of social systems breaking down, of increasing stimuli and environmental toxins to be dealt with, and maybe showing a need for new concepts in how we live our lives....



Then there is a theory in psychiatry that says that humans come equipped with some kind of filter in their brains that allows them to filter out most external stimuli and focus on the task at hand. When this filter breaks down the result is that the brain is bombarded with stimuli and the afflicted person can't sort out all of the incoming information and we have schizophrenia.

This is what Aldous Huxley was saying in his book on the Doors of Perception - also tied in with experimentation with psychedelic drug use.

This thread makes me want to look up some books to delve more into this subject! :bounce:

DemEx

[Droopy]

6. There are books out there

about experiments with psychedelics and mentally ill patients that were performed back in the 60s before it became illegal to let doctors have those drugs for the purpose of scientific research. There was one such book in my local state college library about LSD and schizophrenic patients, but it was limited to faculty use. These books are hard to find, but they do exist. You may be able to find such books from a publisher specializing in rare books.

There was a fellow named Terrence McKenna who was a modern day explorer of psychedelic drugs. It was his view that those drugs opened up doors to higher states of consciousness. He also researched primitive cultures in South America and their use of psychedelic plants as a part of religious ceremonies. McKenna died a few years back at a young age from a brain tumor, but he did a lot of interesting work and developed interesting theories in his short life.

Personally, as you can probably imagine, I do not believe that psychedelic drugs lead to mystical states of mind. But I think you can understand my interest in psychedelic drugs. I read somewhere where a psychologist who took LSD thought it was an invaluable experience because he believed that he then knew what it was like to have schizophrenia and was able to help empathize and help his patients more.

[mdmc]

10. amazing

I have this theory about schizophrenia, and know I learn that it is not original. I guess there is nothing new under the sun.

I agree that the human mind filters data and schizophrenia is a malfunction of this filter.

[DemExpat]

7. I found this on BBC tonight...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4218851.stm

Cannabis mental health risk probe

Cannabis was reclassified so police could target harder drugs
The government says it will review all academic and clinical studies linking cannabis use to mental health problems.
The Department of Health says it is now generally agreed among doctors that cannabis is an "important causal factor" in mental illness.

It follows a mental health group's call for the government to investigate "the link between cannabis and psychosis".

Rethink said its reclassification from a Class B to Class C drug sent a "confusing message" to young people.

The charity wants the Commons Health Select Committee to launch an inquiry into the effect cannabis has on users.

Its call was also backed by health campaign group Sane which wants the classification of cannabis to be reversed.

A Department of Health spokesman said it was already commissioning a review.

"We have no objection to the health select committee looking into this," he said.

'Common consensus'

"However we are in the process of commissioning an expert review of all the academic and clinical evidence of the link between cannabis use and mental health, particularly schizophrenia.

"There is medical clinical evidence now that there is an important causal factor between cannabis use and schizophrenia - not the only factor, but an important causal factor. That is the common consensus among the medical fraternity."

--------------------------snip--------------------------------

[Droopy]

8. Hmmmmm

I've heard many people say that they don't like marijuana because it makes them paranoid. It's usually a reversable state, though. The paranoia goes away when the drug wears off. I used to smoke pot when I was a teenager and into my early twenties. It had the desired affect up until the day I became ill. After that it would make my symptoms worse. The only thing I could do after I became ill was drink alcohol and it would relieve my symptoms temporarily, but I actually did some crazy shit when I was drunk so I guess I should say it obliterated my self consciousness of being ill.

I don't think using marijuana will make you mentally ill unless you have a genetic predisposition for becoming ill. Which is the same way I feel about my LSD use. I'm probably about half way through "Surviving Schizophrenia" and there was a section in there about drug use and mental illness. It was the author's opinion that just because drug use is concurrent with the onset of mental illness it doesn't necessarily mean that the drugs caused the illness. Many people use drugs at about the age of the onset of schizophrnia. It has been shown that schizophrenia usually develops between 18-25 years of age. Many people may use drugs because they are developing the illness as a form of self-medication. It was his thought that schizophrenia will develop regardless of drug use. It was implied that he did not think that drug use causes schizophrenia. It just may appear that way because many young adults are using drugs at the time of the onset of the illness.

I know someone who uses marijuana and has so heavily since he was a teenager. He is not mentally ill unless you count addiction a mental illness. He doesn't feel right unless he has had something to smoke. I've heard some people say that marijuana is not habit forming. Tell that to my friend.

[DemExpat]

9. Yes, the author of the article does say "trigger"....not "cause"

I am of the mind that it does trigger something that is latent (a potential) in susceptible people. And I have a suspicion that many cases would not develop if not for drug use triggering it....maybe the increase in schizophrenia can be related to increased drug use....?

And therefore not as safe/benign as many would like to think it is.

(Marijuana)....

The article also mentions how difficult to prove this would be...like proving what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

MJ may not be physically addictive, but certainly it can be emotionally addictive IMO. Like with your friend, perhaps.

Anyway, I asked my 2 children to pass on experimenting with cannabis and other drugs because of my fear of the possible negative effect on their future mental health (based on my experiences and my biology:-)), and I am so happy that they listened to their Mom!
:D

:hi:

DemEx

[hunter]

11. I think it's an evolutionary thing.

Up until late adolescence our thought processes are very literal and concrete. Then the filters are rolled back a little, and more noise enters the process. In most cases, in most people, this is a beneficial thing, it allows them to have novel thoughts and perceive dangers that hadn't previously been visible, and is thus an overall benefit to the survival of the community.

If something goes wrong with this process, for any number of reasons --heredity, toxins, infections, and/or allergies-- then a person becomes mentally ill.

I remember very clearly the times I've come unhinged and it seems to be related very directly to biological changes related to age. My family tree is full of mentally ill people and there seems to be certain ages when mental illness waxes and wanes.

My own young adulthood was pretty terrifying, and it looks worse to me in retrospect now that I'm stabilized by medication than it did to me at the time. I put people who cared for me through hell, and for the most part I was oblivious to that.