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Sincere question about classical music: Does classical have a death wish?

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 08:55 PM
Original message
Sincere question about classical music: Does classical have a death wish?
Let me explain, that I like classical music, but I did not grow up on a household in which a lot of classical music was played. I like challenging music that involves serious musicianship -- but mostly jazz, latin big band music, Afro-Latin Jazz and Brazilian music.

I like classical music, but find it difficult to get "started" in the music. I often read hand-wringing articles in the NY Times about how when the current generation of classical music buffs dies off, there won't be a new audience to replace them.

Yet the classical music "industry" makes it virtually impossible to get involved in the music if you did not grow up with it. It seems that despite the challenges that the classical music sector faces in building a new audience, it positively rejects new recruits. For example, when I listen to classical music stations, if I hear something I would like to buy, the DJs rarely tell you how to buy it. They will say, perhaps this is so-and-so's Concierto in A minor, opus number xx, but when you go to the classical music section of the record store and tell the snotty clerk, he will ask, "which recording" etc, etc. Of course because there is a fixed repetoire, that is re-played and re-interpreted, there are going to be dozens of recordings of the same piece of music. Which should I buy?

Note how jazz DJs treat their audiences compared to how classical DJs treat theirs. Jazz DJs are constantly explaining who these musicians are, the context in which they played. They are almost pedantic in their explanation and have missionary zeal in bringing in new listeners or making regular listeners aware of artists they might not be familiar with. Classical music is virtually the opposite. The attitude seems to be, if you did not learn this by the time you were 12 years old, it's too late.

Can some classical music fan explain this to me? Or how to begin collecting classical music recordings, without facing the irate, condescending glower of the classical music store clerk?

I would think that I make a good potential member of the classical music audience. But does classical music want me to get involved?
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.
Loving and appreciating classical music is a life long learning experience and a very enriching one that doesn't need to be so hard. Find out what you like, don't be afraid to explore. I joined a music club and got turned on to so many things from many periods. Also, go to the library; it's free so what have you got to lose?
When you find a composer or period you like, do some research. The net is great for that, if you narrow your search down. See what listeners recommend! Don't depend on the snobby store clerk to tell you what you like. My love of classical was born when I heard Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky" soundtrack, so be aware of film too.
Don't give up, because this music has enriched my imagination and my creativity. Good luck.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-29-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I grew up with it in the background, but I was never serious until
Edited on Mon Nov-29-04 11:51 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
I entered grad school.

I didn't bother with getting any "core" repertoire defined by others or getting any specific recordings, since one person's idea of the "best" recording can be another person's idea of garbage.

But I knew a lot of music majors, and they were always giving recitals and going to concerts by visiting performers. Whenever I heard something I really liked, I bought it, whether it was considered core repertoire or not. For example, the first Mozart recording I bought was of his string quintets, one of which I had heard in concert.

I've continued that practice throughout my life. I have a collection of about 200 CDs, but I lack a lot of the supposedly standard works.

Now I agree that there are a lot of snobs in classical music, but you just have to ignore them, because frankly, they sometimes don't know what they're talking about.

For example, I heard a self-professed connoisseur slam the King's Singers for doing pop arrangements in the second half of their program. "They should have stuck with Tallis and Gibbons," he opined. Well, I love Tallis and Gibbons myself, but I asked the carper if he was a singer. He was not. He therefore did not realize that the pop arrangements were MUCH harder to sing than the farely straightforward Tudor English repertoire.

If you listen to a classical station, check out its website to see if it lists the recordings there. Not all announcers dispense with explanations, but having volunteered for a classical station for ten years, I know that an announcer who "talks too much" is going to prompt angry phone calls from listeners and eventually get a reprimand from station management.

If your local NPR station carries Performance Today, that's a great resource for the beginning classical music fan. It features not only excerpts from live concerts but also interviews with performances, quizzes, and guest speakers who talk about different genres or instruments.

Record store clerks are a gamble. Some of them really don't know Bach from Beethoven and are acting snooty to cover up their ignorance. Others are terrific. But all in all, the "best" recording is the one you like best.

I wish the atmosphere at classical concerts weren't so stuffy. I wish that classical ensembles would go out and play on street corners and in coffeehouses and parks more and advertise their concerts on telephone poles and make sure they were advertised in the local entertainment papers.

Most of all, we've had about twenty years when schools have cut music instruction because they think it's a "frill." For that reason, only the genres of music that can market themselves well gain an audience.

Find out if your local ensembles have pre-concert lectures or special concerts with commentary by the performers.

BBC Music magazine is a good resource for general background, and it comes with a CD every month.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Listen to CBC FM
It's available online at cbc.ca.

Some evenings (Thursday?) they do comparisons of performances and CD recommendations.

A friend of mine owns a classical music store. Let me know if you need anything specific and he can look it up.
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Barad Simith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. I started to reply, but it became so long, I gave it its own thread...
I was listing four possible solutions to your dilemma, and just got carried away:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=278x61
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Some classical stations list recordings right on their website.
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 06:30 PM by CBHagman
I've worked in music retail for 17 years, and I cannot possibly tell you how much easier the Internet has made my life. Now when NPR or the local classical station plays a selection, I can more often than not go right to the website to find which recording they used. No more calling the station during office hours!

Countless times a customer has come in and sheepishly revealed that he/she was trying to write down the name of the work while driving down the highway. Sometimes we were able to locate the item in question, and sometimes we had to compromise and/or give up. But now I can play samples for my customers from various music websites, and the frustration level has gone down considerably.

And I know what you're saying about snotty music clerks. I'm truly sorry you had that experience. But there's support out here for you, from online reviews to websites to groups like this, and I hope it makes it easier for you.

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BamaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ok, let me start off by saying I don't have a clue what I'm talking about
lol :P I listen a lot of different stuff, rock to country to opera. I grew up with a lot of different music, and while my parents own very little classical, they sure carted us off to the symphony and opera every season lol. Others can give you better advice on how to buy classical. Something you said caught my attention though and I thought I would suggest a cd-- Liszt, Concertos for Piano Nos 1 and 2, mine is from Point Classics. This suggestion is on response to, "I like challenging music that involves serious musicianship". Listz was wonderful, and completely underated in my book.

Now, since I have no jazz, can you suggest something for a jazz novice? We have no stations that are the least bit non-mainstream, and not much available in the local stores.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wrong forum -- but how to start a jazz collection!
I'm sorry you don't have a jazz station near you because this is the best way to get started. One of my complaints was that it is sooooo much easier to learn about jazz from jazz dj's than it is to learn about classical music from classical djs.

Well, if you don't have a jazz radio station, maybe you can listen to one over the internet. The best in the nation is WBGO Newark, which can be picked up on most of NYC and over the internet.

If that doesn't work, the main thing to keep in mind is that jazz tends to be divided into periods based on certain major jazz figures -- In the beginning there was Louis Armstrong; and Satchmo began Lester Young; and Lester Young begat Charlie Parker (although Charlie Parker had a John-the-baptist, Dizzy Gillespie); and Charlie Parker begat Miles Davis; and Miles begat John Coltrane.

For purists, time sort of ends in 1967 when Coltrane died. Just kidding. But really there are a lot of jazz fanatics who believe that the music reached a sort of plateau but there have been few major innovations that cannot be attributed to these six figures, including many innovations by Miles after Coltrane's death.

Maybe it's just a heuristic device, but jazz tends to be understood in terms of major innovations by these major players. Other greats include Duke Ellington, Art Blakely, Eric Dolphy, Herbie Hancock and most recently Wynton Marsalis (alhtough an equal number of jazz critics hate Wynton Marsalis and refer to him as the murderer of jazz).

But you want concrete advice, right?

Here is a starting sampler:

Miles Davis, Kind of Blue
Miles Davis, Milestones
John Coltrane, My Favorite Things
John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman

Hope this helps.
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toddaa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. A starting point from today's jazz artists
Jazz did not end in 1965. Despite the objections of the ignorant Ken Burns, jazz is far better today than it ever was.

The best way to start a jazz collection is to start buying recordings by artists alive and working today. Here's a list of recordings from the past five years which will give you starting point.

Dave Holland - What Goes Around
Marilyn Crispell - Amaryllis
Jason Moran - Black Stars
Wayne Shorter - Alegria
Saxophone Summit (Michael Brecker/Joe Lovano/Dave Liebman) - Gathering of Spirits

These are all innovative recordings that look forward, without getting too far out on the avant limb, which my tastes tend to run toward. If you like what you hear, by all means go back in time to the 'classics' to hear where the above artists are coming from.

To tie this list into the classical thread, there are composers coming out of the jazz tradition which transcend label boundaries and rightfully belong on the list of major modern composers. In this list I'd include names like Anthony Braxton, Wadada Leo Smith, Sam Rivers, Andrew Hill, Henry Threadgill, and George Lewis. Because their music includes improvisation (less than you might think), saxophones, and black musicians, they tend to get dumped into the jazz section of the music bins. Cecil Taylor doesn't even use the word anymore, so why should you. Of course, it all goes back to Duke Ellington, who transcended all boundaries and rightfully belongs on whatever great composer list you wish to put together.

Jazz has the same problems classical has and it comes down to borderline necrophilia. Stop listening to dead people music and go find something being created now.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks everyone for your suggestions
BTW, the one classical dj who I find is informative for the novice is so called PDQ Bach, bastard descendant of JS Bach, Peter Schickele. Unfortunately it is on the radio at some god forsaken hour.

I also used to listen to classical dj Steve Post every morning, back when WNYC had a sense of humor, just for his incredibly grumpy morning monologue. But he wasn't that useful for learning about music. Why aren't there more Steve Posts as classical dj's?
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh, Schickele Mix!
The divine Peter Schickele does have a website for Schickele Mix, a program on which Mozart and Dolly Parton can be played in succession. He's done programs on child prodigies (hence Mozart and Dolly Parton on the same program), Why Conductors Get Paid, Everybody Makes Mistakes (errors in performance), and so forth I adore this guy.

He will mail you the information on recordings he's played, or you can look online.

I also used to listen to Karl Haas (sp), a more conventional type. My local NPR station used to do a new recordings show, but they've cut back so much that I don't know if they kept that.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. Best way to pass on the music...
play it you your offspring from an early early age, it will stick with them (worked for me, how many college kids do you know who like classical?)
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Start with the late Leonard Bernstein
I recall my early introduction to classical music was from the boob tube, Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts (I was maybe 4 or 5 when I first saw them). If anything, what I saw taught me classical music was accessible to little tykes at that time.

Today, I have a subscription to concerts where the conductor gives lectures before and during the concert, which has helped expand my listening horizons.

The text to some of the concert lectures are on his website http://www.leonardbernstein.com/youth.html, and some shows are now available on DVD, Amazon.com sells them.



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Princess Turandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. I don't think I've ever asked a music section clerk about a recording..
although I have had them offer unsolicited advice occasionally. Tower Record in NYC has 2 stores with big classical sections and fairly knowledgeable employees. This will probably be of no help to you at all, but I think what I did initially was pay attention to who was conducting whatever I was looking at, the singers (if vocal), the orchestra and finally the recording label. I have a bias towards opera, vocal and early music, and also decided that certain labels were more likely than not to provide me with something I would like. Initially, I tended to buy opera recordings by Deutsche Grammaphone because they had a reputation in that market, also looking at the singers/conducter/orchestra as I became more familiar with things. (I'm a self-taught opera addict who has never taken a snooty approach to the world's snootiest music form lol.) Eventually, I found myself generally enjoying recordings on the Erato and Harmonia Mundi labels, and would pick one up here and there without knowing a clue about the music on the CD. You can also buy guides to classical music, which will recommend recordings. For example, I think the Viking Opera Guide is a very valuable publication for the opera fan, since it not only gives a summary of the plot of an opera, but also provides information abt the musical highlights in the opera, stuff on the composer, and recommended recordings. Maybe someone here can recommend a guide on more general classical music to you.

I think you probably need to listen to a variety of composers to find a music form(s) that you like. Handel & Beethoven wrote in quite different styles of music. You may like both, neither or one or the other. If you do find composers that you like, then you can then expand to other composers in their period. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that composers can write in a variety of musical forms: I like Beethoven's symphonies but am not that into his sonatas as an example, and quite dislike his one opera!

Listening to snippets on websites is a good idea; I think other people suggested sites in this thread. Depending on where you live,
your library might also lend out recordings.

I think you need to be a bit careful abt buying low budget recordings before you obtain a better feel for what you like, especially with off-brand foreign labels, unless you just view it as an experiment. A recording by the Transylvanian Symphony Orchestra might turn you off of a piece forever because of poor recording and less than stellar singing. I once bought a very inexpensive recording of a favorite Tchaikovsky opera of mine out of curiousity, "Eugene Onegin", stuck it in my player when I got home, and discovered that the company had sung it in German, not Russian.(Germans have a habit of singing operas in German, no matter what language they are written in lol.)

(I was probably in my 20's when I bought my first classical recording, since I did not grow up in a family where it was played.)
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