SPOILER THREAD: The secret of the Avada Kedavra

[Walt Starr]

Okay, we know Voldemort was creating six Horcruxes with the seventh bit of his soul residing in his physical body. We know for certain two of them which have been destroyed:

1) The Diary
2) Marvolo's ring

We suspect another three of them:

3) Slytherin's locket
4) Hufflepuff's cup
5) Nagini

We are pretty sure the last one has to be something of Ravenclaw's or something of Gryffindor's.

What do we know about the creation of Horcuxes? They must be created when you commit murder.

Here's where we get into my speculation about what happened that night when Voldemort killed the Potter's and tried to kill Harry. When he used the Avada Kedavra against Harry, he was attempting to imbue the fifth (presumably, Nagini was not yet a Horcrux) Horcrux with 1/7th of his soul.

The Avada Kedavra backfired, but did not kill Voldemort just as it had not killed Harry. This was because of the spell Voldemort was using to imbue whatever item was to be the fifth horcrux backfired and imbued 1/7th of Voldemort's power into Harry.

In essence, the love of Lilly stopped the Avada Kedavra from killing Harry and the Horcrux spell stopped the backfired AK from killing Voldemort, locking them both into the prophecy.

So, with the loss of that bit of power, there are only five Horcruxes instead of six. Harry needs to destroy the locket, the cup, and Nagini to have Voldemort basically down to only himself. The key is, the final horcrux will probably have to be used by Harry to destroy Voldemort.

My guess is, the sword of Gryffindor must be used to kill Voldemort.

Flame away...

[Pithy Cherub]

1. Well after some heated thought, a hidden horcrux

may be the silver hand that Wormtail (Gryffindor) got in Goblet of Fire. Cedric died and out of that V may have hidden another right in plain sight. Back to PoA and Dumbledore saying Peter would owe Harry. Now that would be most interesting.

Agree with you that Harry has part of Voldemort, but that would lead to the conclusion that Harry has to die to kill off V's 1/7th horcrux inside of himself. Or is the price tag one of his friends dying while removing it?

The timing of the creation of the horcruxes is important. The diary showed Riddle at the age he made the horcrux. So were others made before the Harry Avada-rebounding-Kedava curse or after GoF?

The sword of Gryffindor slaying the Heir of Slytherin, not buying that. I think Harry has to use the power of agape or love. Will sacrfice for Love, again following in his mother's footsteps and showing the bravery and impetuous courage of his father.

your thoughts...

[Walt Starr]

2. Here's my take on them

1) I believe the Diary was the first Horcrux he ever created.

2) I believe Marvolo's ring was the second Horcrux he created. This would have been when he murdered Tom Riddle Sr.

3) I would say the Hufflepuff cup is the third Horcrux. Created when he killed Hepzibah.

4) The Slythering Locket is the fourth. Not sure who he killed for this one.

5) The fifth would have been Gryffindor's sword. This would have been created when he killed Harry.

6) After Harry, he would have killed Neville using an item of Ravenclaw's to create the Horcrux and solidifying his immortality.

Lilly's love magic stopped 5 so 6 never happened. This resulted in a loss of 1/7th of his soul, but no Horcrux was actually created. An entirely different and completely unexpected effect occurred which was a transfer of power to the boy who lived. He created his fifth (and final) Horcrux during the events of GoF out of Nagini, choosing an intelligent snake creature in attempt to regain some of the power he lost in the defeat at the Potter house.

[Pithy Cherub]

3. What if Voldy is unaware

of Harry as a "made" living horcrux? V might think he has one more to make and the magic let's him know - he's out of juice, so to speak. Then V realizes Harry is the "mark him as your equal" part of the prophecy coming true. So you have the final battle so to speak.

One cannot create horcruxes with out cost. Slug was real clear on that. Voldy had looked at the dimensions of what needed to be done and in his impetousness made more mistakes. That may have been the issue with Harry. Two deaths needed for this one horcrux: Voldemort had tabbed James & Harry and was going to give Lilly a go-on-with- your-life-alone card. Instead of the planned two James & Harry, V kills James, then Lilly gives double protection to Harry, and Voldemort loses another piece of himself and zapped his own power. So Lilly made the horcrux timing and spell go badly awry.

Horcrux 1: The Diary - not sure if it was Myrtle or the father, Riddle sr.

Still thinking on them...

[XemaSab]

4. I call myrtle for the diary

n/t

[Walt Starr]

6. That was my suspicion as well, but I'm not certain that's true

Myrtle dies in what's revealed by the Diary and the Diary Voldemort knew it.

Probably created by the murder of one of the other Riddles, possibly even Tom Riddle Sr.. That would still leave one of the other Riddles for Marvolo's ring.

[XemaSab]

7. I'm not gonna swear by it

but myrtle was his first kill.

[Walt Starr]

9. Actually, no she wasn't

Tom Riddle did not kill Myrtle. He set up the circumstances under which she would be killed buut the actual killing was done by the basilisk.

[XemaSab]

15. He directed the basilisk to kill her

You don't think that could create a horcrux?

[Walt Starr]

16. Nope, I sure don't

I think you have to actually carry out a murder all the way through in order to create a Horcrux.

[XemaSab]

17. you may be right

but only JK Rowling knows for sure...

[Walt Starr]

19. True enough, but I don't think the events after the murder would have

been present in the diary had the murder of Myrtle been used to create the Horcrux. Remember, Myrtle's body was removed and then there is the standoff with Hagred and ARagog just prior to Hagrid's arrest. Had Myrtle's murder been used, I don't think those memorires would have been present in the diary.

So between the two bits, I doubt that Myrtle's murder was used to create the Diary as a Horcrux.

Of course, if I'm wrong about having to actually commit the murder yourself, some other device may have become the Horcrux.

[Walt Starr]

5. Harry CAN'T be a Horcrux

A Horcrux is created when you murder.

Now, a Horcux could have been created when he murdered Lilly, but then Harry wouldn't be that Horcrux because Voldemort wanted to murder Harry.

And if, as I surmise, he was going to use the murder of Harry to create a Horcrux, then Harry wouldn't be the Horcrux either as a specific objoect would have been the object of the Horcrux spell.

Rememer, Voldemort doesn't want his Horcruxes destroyed and was pissed when Lucius caused his first to be destroyed. Each Horcrux means more power for Voldemort.

[Pithy Cherub]

8. Voldemort was off his game.

"A Horcrux is created when you murder.

Now, a Horcux could have been created when he murdered Lilly, but then Harry wouldn't be that Horcrux because Voldemort wanted to murder Harry."

Exactly! ;)

Everything went righteously wrong with Voldemort's plan. He intended to murder Harry, dispensed with his Mom and then thought he could just "greenlight AK" Harry right off the planet. And then it all went really bad from V's perspective. Lilly was given the option to go away - she did not, poof dead. Yes, V did not plan on killing her, but on killing James and Harry. V had two definitive murders planned, but it went wrong AFTER he killed Lilly.

My point, is Voldemort had already planned to make a horcrux and he accidentally made Harry one and may not even know it. You have to mean it to use an Unforgiveable Curse and V really meant it. V had happen to him what happens to every human, he made a mistake! Lilly caused V's power to be off and baby Harry's power to grow.
The magic is about controlling the power behind the intent.

Harry has many of Voldemort's talents and attributes that would be part of a soul. His parseltounge capacity, his sneaky rulebreaking, the ability to feel his presence and his emotions, et al that Dumbledore also acknowledged in CoS.

I think you are right that there was a definitive object/person V intended to be the horcrux - JKR in her interview with The Leaky Cauldron and mugglenet refused to comment, at all - even with begging, when asked if Voldemort was alone the night the Potter's were killed.

[Walt Starr]

10. He could not have made Harry a Horcrux

because he murdered nobody during his attempt to create a Horcrux.

[Pithy Cherub]

11. Yes he could, you can count James or Lilly as officially murdered.

With Harry being the horcrux - by accident not intent.

[Walt Starr]

12. I don't buy that. It just does not add up.

IMO, the spell to create the Horcrux must be cast wheh the intended murder occurs.

IMO, there is no possible way Harry could be the Horcrux.

[Pithy Cherub]

13. We are agreed to disagree.

We will find out who is right, partially right or outright in a parallel Potterverse in about July 2007.

note: JKR is a fanatic about the classics (her degree et al)she takes some clues from Jane Austen, Andrew Sorkin and the Bard, himself (MacBeth is one of her faves). Dumbledore is modeled after Aristotle and the double reverse is totally her style! ;)

[Walt Starr]

14. We can definitely agree to disagree

and I knew about JKR's love of the classics, too. ;)

[Mist]

27. Just throwing this out FWIW--

Caractacus Burke (of Borgin & Burkes) bought the locket, and knew it was a tremendous bargain for 10 galleons. Perhaps he couldn't bring himself to sell it? Tom Riddle found Burke still had it, and killed him for it, and to create a horcrux. After all, we never see Burke anywhere about in the store, and are only introduced to him through the Pensieve. Seems like Borgin is the only one running the store.

[intheflow]

28. No. Riddle got the locket from Hepzibah Smith,

who owned both the locket and the Hufflepuff cup. Riddle killed Smith to get both the locket and cup, and framed Hepzibah's house elf. Hepzibah was the person who showed him the locket, and told him the story of how Borgin & Burkes bought the locket for just 10 galleons.

[Mist]

29. Oops! I'm embarrassed I forgot that! n/t

[intheflow]

18. I think he was going for a Gryffindor horcrux,

something James and Lily had, when he came up against Harry. I don't think Harry is a horcrux because, as others have noted, he'd have to die in the final book and I don't see that happening. If for no other reason than JKR would have to live the rest of her life on the run from incensed fans! LOL

I also wonder (though I'm not at all sure) if there isn't a horcrux at the Potter ruins, since we know Harry is going to visit there in the last book. I keep thinking aobut how DD found Marvolo's ring in the ruins of the Gaunt house.

[Walt Starr]

20. I think he planned on murdering Neville, too

Because Neville would fulfill the prophecy as well. I further figure he thought Neville the more likely of the two to fulfill the prophecy because Neville was full blood.

[intheflow]

21. I agree.

In fact, I almost wrote that in my post. I wonder if Neville's parents were tortured to death to discover where they had Neville hidden. I also suspect Snape had a hand in their torture. I can't remember which book--OotP, I think--where it says that Bellatrix and some other death eaters tortured the Longbottoms. Was Snape one of the other death eaters? Hoping to kill Neville so that Lily's child could be spared?

(I don't actually think Snape and Lily ever had a "thing," but I do think he had a soft spot for her because she was so pretty and kind.)

[Branjor]

22. This thing about Lily's love....

saving Harry. Is Lily the only mother who loves her child? Wouldn't other mothers do the same for their children? Then, wouldn't those children be able to survive the Avada Kedavara as well as Harry did? Then, what's so special about Harry? Nothing, I guess.

[Walt Starr]

23. Nope, the distinction is there. James died protecting both Lily and Harry

but that didn't save Lily.

The difference is, Voldemort gave Lily the choice. He told her she could live or she could die, but either way, Harry would die. It was up to her.

The difference is the fact that Voldemort actually gave her the choice and she chose to die protecting Harry. That's the difference. James knew he was going to die no matter what. Until given the choice,Lily was going to die no matter what as well.

I would agree, almost any mother in her right mind would make the same choicegiven the same circumstances. The difference is, Voldemort gave her that choice.

[WMliberal]

24. I bet Snape finds the missing Horcrux

I just want to know who HAB is.

[intheflow]

25. RAB, not HAB.

Speculation is that it's Sirius' brother, Regulus Black. But of course we'll have to wait at least 2 more years to really know.

:banghead:

[WMliberal]

26. that was my guess.

The only important wizarding family we know of whose name begins with B is Black. I figured it had to be some cousin or something of Sirius'.

[robbedvoter]

30. I don't think the connection murder-horcrux is THAT literal, mechanical

Nowhere does it say that every time a murder is committed, a sould splits.
DD said something about something heinous, such as a murder - and I suppose at some point, once a certain threshold of heinousness is met, the splitting of the soul should be a given. It's a methaphisical connection, not a pie cutting, mathematical one.
The assumption is that before going for Harry, Voldemort had his horcrux project completed. Of course, it would be interesting if he didn't.
Still, Harry can't possibly be a horcrux as Voldemort's failed act of possession of Harry in OOTP demonstrated. Incompatibility.

[Walt Starr]

31. Not the point

The point is, every time the soul splits, a murder MUST be comitted. Not the other way around.