some thoughts on the photography contests

[DS1]

I think that enacting all these competition rules, then leaving our competitions up to the lounge is somewhat self-defeating. I don't want to sound like I'm pissing all over the judgement of the lounge, I'm certainly a big part of the lounge. Yet I'm far from convinced that anyone that stumbles across a photo poll has the understanding of the effort that goes into great photography. If the Lounge is in fact a great panel of judges, why are rules suggested that no comments on the individual merit of any photographs are allowed? Surely good critics would have their opinions, based on their own experiences, right? I think we're crippling our competitions by devising rules that speak to photographic excellence and integrity and then tailoring our contest toward what’s popular in an open forum.

What drives me to post this is an occasion when someone in the lounge posted a picture of something (I'm deliberately being vague here), and I took it upon myself to digitally remove from the picture a big distraction. - Something in the picture that served no purpose other than distracting the eye from the subject - and then I reposted the photo. The original poster could not find the difference until I specifically pointed out what I had done. While I know that digital manipulation to that degree is largely frowned upon in most photography forums, the fact is that the person could not after multiple views, see what I had changed. It was a really obvious change.

I think that the Photography competitions should primarily be held here, among people that frequently use their cameras. If desired, we can put the same exact poll of finalists up in the Lounge. If nothing else the difference in opinion, or lack thereof, would be a learning experience. Posting in the Lounge, when it boils right down to the bone is all around some sort of unsaid glory anyway. That's okay, I was the one that suggested that if a DUer won a photography contest, he or she would be allowed to add to their signature a medal of sorts.

I suppose I could sum it up best by saying that ‘Artists can see the effort and talent in art, why should we open up our abilities for judgement among non-photographers?’

[ConsAreLiars]

1. The value of the contest is in the process, not the outcome.

There are no entry fees or monetary rewards. In my view it's just for entertainment. I think getting feedback from all sources is useful, but those who are more concerned about the "contest" aspect worry that comments, or even knowing the name of the photographer, might be an unfair influence, just as you worry that the unsophisticated voter might unfairly influence the outcome.

But, as a practical matter, even posting in the heavily trafficked Lounge yields maybe 150 votes. Polls here may get a dozen or two, and spread across ten pics the results still wouldn't mean much.

My view is that the main point of the "contest" is to show our work, not to rate it, and for that the Lounge provides a larger venue.

[DS1]

3. That's why I suggested a duality

posting both finalists here and there

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

2. It is not the Lounge, per se, but the number of posters

there we are after, I think.

Seems like we put too much emphasis on the thoughts of, as DS1 says, the non-photographers, while ignoring very constructive criticism from others here.

I don't even pretend to understand it. To me this is a goof, something sort of fun to do online. I don't enter contests as a rule, and that this one was so mellow and disorganized got my heart.

So, should we just leave the pics here and wait for someone to slather them with praise? Or go out and cast pearls before swine fishing for more praise?

To me that is what it comes down to.

[DS1]

5. That's sort of hitting on my point

I recognize that my opinion is mine and mine alone, but it is an opinion that has 'been there' and has been told by professionals that I do "have 'the eye'", so when a technically difficult picture is put up against a picture of a kitten, then the kitten will win, due to subject matter. I'm trying to work out, possibly in a too open manner, a way to separate photos that are truly difficult to take well and photos that appeal to the masses simply because of content.

That is the dillema I'm trying to address.

[intheflow]

12. The contest has an audience beyond the Lounge.

It's made the greatest page every month since the greatest page began.

[kliljedahl]

4. Why is it the lounge, why not GD?

I'm a relative newbie in this group (3 entries, not even a top 10}, but I don't care. I didn't deserve to be in the top 10 after seeing the other entries. But why the lounge? They seem to be a rather insular, cliquish group. I may be wrong but after a few forays into the lounge, that's my opinion. I think we'd be better off posting in GD. Comments?


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[DS1]

6. I'd rather not get into an argument regarding the merits of the lounge

The lounge is there, it's what it is, and it will remain what it is until the powers that be decide otherwise. The lounge is where people post a lot of their pictures, so the Photography group started posting contests of best picture in the lounge, and evolved into its own group.

The lounge by no means is the be all end all of DU, which is why the DUer who is no longer with us whose initials were LG suggested the Photo Group keep the Photo contests to the Photo group. I did suggest that an identical poll be put in the lounge, if for no other reason than a learning experience for photographers. I know that I've taken many pictures and have had them beat by content. Oh look, that's such a cute puppy, I'll vote for that! - never mind the incoming wall of magma in another picture that required a split-second reflex ability, great composition while a wall of fire was headed your way, and all those other factors. But that's the heart of my argument. Maybe I'm just being a dick, if I'm being a dick then tell me so.

Still, I think that we should have two final polls. One here, and one in the lounge if needed. The one here should be open to members, and the copy in the lounge should be open to everyone.

[Ms. Toad]

7. Hmm...

Thinking about this is too much work...I'd rather just have fun.

I guess I'm concerned that if we make the contest too formal, and put too much emphasis on the contest and on the artistry, it will cease to be fun for those who are just beginning to experiment with photography - and don't yet consider themselves artists. Having the contest in the lounge - and having some of the artistically better photos end up lower in the rankings levels the playing field a bit - even if it is a bit humbling - or frustrating - at times.

[Blue_In_AK]

8. I have no strong opinion on this one...

I posted the preliminary polls here in the group this month because that's what the original no-longer-with-us host (initial A) had suggested. As soon as I did that, people were wondering why I didn't post them in the lounge, so I referred them back here, but it was pointed out that people without stars couldn't vote in the photo group. I think if they want to vote, they should be willing to contribute to DU, but that's just me.

I do see the advantage to having more serious photographers critique the shots because I agree that loungers probably are a bit more superficial on the technical aspects. (I think I came in second last month and not further down because people liked my subject "bleeding hearts." That has a certain appeal for liberal democrats.)

Anyway, I'll go with whatever the group as a whole wants. This contest is more or less just for fun for me, and a way for me to hone my skills since I'm kind of new at this photography stuff (although I've been told that I have the "eye," too. Maybe they were just being nice.)

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[RagingInMiami]

13. Bleeding hearts was an awesome photo

You didn't even have to name it to to see that it was bleeding hearts. And it could stand for anybody in mourning, not just liberals.

[intheflow]

9. We deal with the weighty issues of the day here at DU.

I vote for laid back photo contest. Maybe we could all agree to have a round table on the photos after the contest to discuss the merits of the photography/composition/technique of the entrants.

I'd also like to see the final posted alternatively, every other month, in the Lounge & GD, just to get different perspectives. As far as I know it's always been posted in the Lounge because our founder was somewhat of a Lounge Lizard. No reason the Lounge should have exclusive publishing rights, GD deserves art, too.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

10. I like that idea... have the contest as we have been

doing, more or less... then each day have one entry posted, and everyone gets to critique it...
that would be meaningful

[Blue_In_AK]

11. I agree on GD...

I think there are probably more potential voters there than in the lounge, as well (and probably a little more serious, although that's not necessarily a criterion for being a good judge of photographs). I posted a link out there to the final contest, but it was hard to keep it kicked. Anyway, I think GD could use something to brighten their day.

[TahitiNut]

17. The GD Forum is for "POLITICAL" discussions.

Unless the photo contest has a political theme, I'd be against posting there. Even then I'm not at all comfortable with rationale for it.

[intheflow]

19. GD is just General Discussion, GD:P is exclusively pol. discussion.

Just a quick look-see in GD as I type shows "H2OMan Appreciation Thread" and "Friday Night TOONS." I think GD is a valid forum. But as others have said, we could always be proactive and ask the mods first. Or we could post in the Meeting Room--that's kind of a less silly Lounge. Of course, the Meeting Room doesn't get the kind of traffic we're looking for.

[TahitiNut]

20. (damnit!) Then, Alert them!

After moderating DU for 6 months straight and having this 'discussion' uncounted times, I have little patience left for arguments that don't relate to the Rules and mere pull-it-out-of-the-ass posturing!

Just because folks break the rules doesn't mean their behavior isn't against the rules!

Furthermore, no matter how often people pretend that they have some license to post "where the biggest audience is," that's NOT the criteria for selecting a forum!! No way; no how.

As they say in IT/MIS: RTFM!

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The distinction between GD and GD:P is vague, to say the least. The creation of GD:P was motivated more by the sheer volume of posts in GD than anything else. The rationale for GD:P was primarily based on partisan political discussion (i.e. Party strategies and tactics) rather than the more general sociopolitical topics. That this distinction is so vaguely understood and enforced is more a testimony to the difficulty of herding cats than anything else.

What I find somewhat "amusing" about this repeated argument is the fact that the DU Groups were largely motivated by people who complained that too many 'others' were interfering with their discussions in the primary forums -- so they wanted a DU Group where they could be "undisturbed.'

Well, that cuts both ways.

[intheflow]

21. OK, Tahitinut! No more coffee for you!

:P

Calm down! Geesh! That's why I said we could ask the mods for permission. We're just having a friendly discussion here. :eyes:

Since you did the mod thing, tell me: what is the difference between GD and GD: Politics, then?

[TahitiNut]

22. I noted the difference at the end of my post.

GD:P was created during election season. It was primarily motivated by volume concerns. It's not only difficult for members to keep up with posts in GD, it's also difficult to moderate even-handedly. (I know, I did it.) So, it was thought that posts wishing to discuss purely partisan topics (i.e. issues wholly related to internal Democratic Party politics) would offer a workable way of partitioning the traffic.

The 'charters' for the various forums remain (deliberately?) vague -- being more a basis for moderator group-think interpretation than some objective nit-picking. Nonetheless, if I were moderating, I'd have little tolerance for posts that have a CLEARLY separate forum or group in such a heavily-trafficked forum as GD.

I think it's important that the ENTIRE DU site is founded for the purpose of liberal democratic political advocacy and discussion. The non-political groups and forums (including the Lounge) are, I believe, an accommodation that too many find easy to abuse (no matter how "unintentional").

[intheflow]

23. Thanks for your even reply.

Not an exclamation mark typed in frustration to be seen. :hug:

I knew GD: P was started because of the election, but the fact that it has remained in addition to the forums dedicated to election issues, implicitly indicated to me that there is a distinction between purely political discussions, and broader discussions. I also went to GD to see if there was a permanent Admin "intro" thread that outlined the rules there. Not seeing anything there (or in GD: P), I assumed the forums were now differentiated as per their titles.

[TahitiNut]

24. Well, call it PMSD

(post-moderation stress disorder)

I moderated during the days (9/2003-3/2004) of DU's automated warnings, 24-hour suspensions, and a host of other "let's try this" changes, including the splitting and merging of forums. On top of that, it was Primaries and a couple of the 'Freeper Invasion' periods. (We were plunking them at the 'door' so lots of DUers didn't see near 1/10th of the tomb-stoned.)

To say we 'discussed' this stuff (in the open and in the mod forum) is a vast understatement. If you think some discussions get intense in GD and LBN, you ought to see what happened in the (private) Mod Forum in those days. When DUers are told about how moderators 'get consensus' before doing something, that ain't half the story.

If you'll recall, the Primary-Candidate 'Wars' were thought by some to threaten DU's future. Instead, it just increased the volume. GD:P is a kind of 'war memorial' to those days.

The DUers who moderated during that period formed the "Super Mod Squad" ... probably the best group of DUers anyone could hope to have as moderators. Stressful? Ubetcha.

[RagingInMiami]

14. Posting it in GD is a great idea

It would definitely be another mindset. And it would be interesting to see that group's perspective against the lounge's, which we know can be very unpredictable.

I have nothing against posting a poll in the photo group except that most people will be voting for their own photos. I know I would. It would be biased in its own way.

[Ms. Toad]

15. Great idea - but

From what I've seen GD, the mods go through spurts of having no tolerance for fun threads and move everyhing not suitably "weighty" (and some I thind are) to the lounge.

Any idea how they would take to the idea of a photo contest?

[Mutley]

18. We could always ask them ahead of time if they will let us post the

contest there.

[TahitiNut]

16. "Peanut butter is better than steak!"

So much of what's discussed is a matter of personal preference where there's absolutley no need to agree on a single criterion. I mean ... who the hell cares where the contest poll is posted? The elitist view that only the cogniscenti vote is meaningful because the 'clueless' aren't able to articulate the valid reasoning for their preference ignores the overall reason for even performing the analysis of the elements of what constitutes a 'good' photo: it's impact on the viewer. Agree or disagree or nitpick that summation, but it's the core. I may know nothing of painting, but I can tour the Louvre and say what I like and what moves me - which is why they were painted in the first place.

Much is made of Photoshopping ... including cropping. Big freaking deal! I have a little Kodak and some have huge honking Nikons with macro-telephotos and tons of manual adjustments. As far as I'm concerned, my ability to crop and color-adjust a photo merely gives me a couple of the capabilities that my camera doesn't offer, but others have. Again ... how the f*ck can it be enforced? Are we to have big pissing contests about whether or not something has been 'enhanced' in the camera or afterwards?

(sigh) And people call ME anal! :eyes:

[bvar22]

25. I joined Photography Group

to learn, to sharpen my skills, and to share my fascination and enjoyment of this terrific form of expression. I enjoy the lax structure of the "Contest" because it provides a venue to focus efforts in a particular area (the theme) without the hassel of "Rules" or the "Competitive Nature" of REAL contests. I view our informal contests more as "Exhibitions" than a "contest" to determine who has the best professional skills (though I DO appreciate any and all professional or amateur evaluations of anything I post here).

I felt comfortable entering this last competition simply because it is so informal. I believe that alot of rules would take some of the fun out of it. I also understand that those more experienced than myself might enjoy a more competative arena as a challenge to their more developed skills.

I can see that it might be possible to manipulate some votes in the Lounge by posting support or criticism to the thread, especially if there is alot of talent on display. Some people will go with the crowd if they are having trouble making up their mind. But really, why bother?


So I guess that ultimately, I favor leaving the "contest" alone. The informal nature of this exhibition appeals to me, and the Lounge (or GD) is a good place to get input from outside this forum, and to share some of the beauty with those who appreciate it.

[GOPFighter]

26. My .02

{Caveat: this is my opinion after a few glasses of wine and may not represent my sober opinion}

I vote for posting the contest in the Lounge. It's not a real photo contest but a diversion from the depressing and weighty issues of the day. It has also attracted new members to the Photo Group, and no doubt encouraged some people to dig out their cameras and start taking pictures of something besides their pets and kids.

And let's face it, we are not, for the most part, serious photographers. We dabble, we have fun, we post pictures that we like and we are very supportive of each other's work. I have never seen any criticism of a photograph posted here unless the poster has asked for a brutally honest opinion from us.

I understand the frustration of a contestant who has entered a photo that took a lot of work and skill to create, and have it beaten out in the contest by a snapshot of a pet. Still, I think the voters in the Lounge have done a pretty good job of picking the winners. The winning photos have always been photos I'd be proud to submit.

:+

[peacebuzzard]

27. Why not do both?

I think your idea is very valid, it would be interesting to see the feedbacks from both groups.

[NashVegas]

28. It's All Subjective, Anyway

So why not put the contest where the widest variety of people can see it and vote?

Just because the Loungers have rarely, if ever, chosen the photo I thought was best, doesn't mean they haven't chosen some that are damn good.

Where Loungers may get hung up on subject matter, often the more dedicated among us get hung up on the technical aspects.

‘Artists can see the effort and talent in art, why should we open up our abilities for judgement among non-photographers?’

That kind of elitism has earned public scorn of what most of us would consider real art. Sorry, DS, but if that's the #1 reason for taking the contest out of the lounge, I seriously disagree. I only started painting two months ago. Does that mean that in the 40 years preceeding, I was unable to tell good paintings from bad?

[peacebuzzard]

29. Here is why I think contest rules should be fixed.

And I admire the hosts, that is a helluva job, and difficult to do. I question the "reward" status of the poll winner.

I believe the KISS rule applies here (Keep it simple s___)
If there are too many rules bylaws and outcomes it would discourage the casual entrant. Especially if the rules change monthly, because then only the more avid photography groupie will be able to keep up with the flow.
It should not discourage the one timer photog--the more contestants the more interesting it becomes.
I believe perhaps a "moderator" should be established to keep track of the submissions and chart the polls, and the moderator should also be able to submit an entry.
There are so many talented people here on these boards with Photoshop, graphics and design that someone should appoint themselves to set up the standard to be used monthly. Perhaps a flowchart containing the rules, a link to the past gallery winners, and threads for submissions, charts for polls, comments section, etc.
oh well, come what may....just my morning coffee thoughts...this is a fun board I have enjoyed participating in and would just like to see as many contestants enter as possible as simply as possible with no strings attached.:donut:

[TahitiNut]

32. Yeah, I think they should be spayed, too.

:silly:

[alfredo]

30. For us dialup people, keeping comments separate

makes life easier.

[F.Gordon]

31. The photo you publically announced was "the best" won

... in the Lounge.
:shrug:

So I guess I don't understand your point. Ragin' certainly deserved to win.... an excellent photo... but I think that regulars of the photo group should refrain from pimping any photo in the contest threads. IMHO.

Would the outcome be any different if it were held "in-house"? Who cares. I like that the lounge seems to draw in newcomers to the group and that's what we really need around here. More people that enjoy taking snapshots.... sharing, learning, having fun, and getting probably a much needed diversion from all the regular bullshit that consumes their life. Not that there are any of us that need a diversion from the regular bullshit that consumes their life.

:hi:

Oh.... and why the hell didn't you enter your shot in the contest?