Letter to Mom about my epiphanous weekend.

[chaska]

Getting too dead around here, ya'll.

Here's an embarassing (for you) look into my private life. This is from a letter to my mother back home in SC. I hope it will have some bearing on your life.

Hey Ma,

<snip>

I went camping last weekend and had some long hours in
the van to think. I had some real revelations about
myself. I recently ran across a couple of articles
that were pretty important to helping me figure myself
out. Cut to the chase: I realized that I am an
introvert (no news there) and that introversion is an
orientation, not unlike homosexuality, in the sense
that it's not something that one can change.

All my life I've been thinking in terms of getting
over my shyness and introversion (those are two
different things, incidentally - there are shy
extroverts, and non-shy introverts). But while one can
get over shyness, and I mostly have, the introversion
is not going to change. Therefore, if I'm to be happy,
I must give up on any notion of trying to fit into the
world of extroverts and focus on succeeding as an
introvert.

What does that mean? It means that I should work
mostly, if not exclusively, alone. Think about it, most,
if not all, of the successes I've had in my life: my
skills as a musician and songwriter, my 3500 miles of
backpacking, my woodworking skills, my design skills,
writing, etc., are things that I do alone. In an
extroverted world most of my attributes aren't even
considered as such, which has had an undeserved effect
on my self-esteem. My skills are special but not
valued by our society. And even to the extent they
are, introverts aren't ones to promote themselves, to
put themselves out there. We aren't the type who say
"Look at me, ain't I great? Give me money."

So while I realize that I have to have a job until I
can make my own way, I realize why I've never been
anything but miserable working for someone else.
Working with others just doesn't work for me.

It's also part of why I haven't had much success with
women. When your basic orientation is inward it's hard
to turn your energies outward. AND, it doesn't work
when an introverted guy tries to make it work with an
extroverted female. The opposite probably works
better: introverted female and extroverted male.

Knowing these things will help me to channel my
efforts more productively. There's no guarantee of
success at anything, of course, but knowing in advance
where I'm not very likely to succeed will certainly
help.

<snip>

So that's it. Those two articles I posted in another thread have really penetrated my brain. I urge you all to read them if you haven't. I don't imagine there will be much response to the present thread. People tend to get embarassed when someone makes public something private. I don't care. I'm very forthright and honest that way. I'll post more later though, about why this is important and relavent to people like us ... I mean, beyond the obvious.

[DemExpat]

1. Didn't embarrass me, not one bit....

:P

I may be a loner but intimacy of thoughts and feelings is something I LOVE sharing with one person/friend/hubby/child/sibling at a time! :-)

I was enthralled with what you had to say to your Mom - what a good space you are moving towards to have insight into this!
This holds great promise for the future - accepting and honoring ourselves is such a vital step.

I hope that you find the way to manifest your self in fulfilling work and a relationship with a slightly extrovert woman! My son is also the introvert, but girls just LOVE him...that quiet, mysterious and not so macho young man of mine....well, he IS still my baby. :-)

Please post the links to the articles - we would love to read them too.
And keep us posted on new developments and insights.

Great stuff!

[knowbody0]

2. hey chaska

i love your post. look forward to more from you.

[kaitykaity]

3. I really do believe it's like you said, an orientation.

I was out in the world for three days in a row because
of this stoopid holiday, and man by the third day I was
a wreck. Some stupid *itch -- I was sitting there with my
blinker on waiting for a parking space and this *itch decides
to pull forward, sees me sitting there and looks at me like
screw you.

It ruined my whole fucking day. I was mad from then on and
a magnet for every idiot on the road.

Normally I can just blow stuff like this off and not be
bothered, but damn I really wanted to key that *itch's car,
you know?

When I finally got done and was almost home, I was working through
my mad in my head -- why am I mad, what's going on, and I realized
I hated, hated, hated being out in the world around all of these
idiots. I wanted to be home in my cave ALONE.

So this is my second day home in my cave. I'm not leaving
again until Friday.

And my mood has improved greatly. :)

[DemExpat]

4. You should have done what Kathy Bates did in the movie

"Fried Green Tomatoes".....when she was learning to deal with her anger - she rammed the offensive car out of "her" parking space with her car...:D

Seriously, it is sometimes just hard, but it is not just the difficult people, its the bombardment of overwhelming incoming signals to one's nervous system through all of the senses that drains loner-type people like us.

This working through the anger later is what I have learned to do, and this approach diffuses it the fastest for me.

:hi:

DemEx

[kaitykaity]

5. Ah the dream of being KB.

I was in a rental car, so...

Anyway, I have my own approach to dealing with the anger. Usually
if my temper triggers like that about some piddly shit, there's
something else wrong that I'm not dealing with. It's kind of like
the good old days when I owned a car and would get road rage a lot.

There's something else wrong I'm not dealing with and so I have
to stop everything else so that I can figure out what it is so
I can then deal with it. And then I stop feeling that way.

I got the technique out of a book called "Getting Undepressed"
and it's about using cognitive therapy to work through feelings.
It works.

[DemExpat]

6. Rental car = good for road rage...

Did you get rid of your car for this reason?
Smart idea, actually... :-)

DemEx

[kaitykaity]

7. lol.

Good bumper sticker. :D

No, my car got repo'd. It was a lease so no harm. I was "between
careers" for almost two years. You know how that goes.

[bemildred]

8. Nice epiphany.

And I think you have it right.

I just spent three days backpacking, and the hardest part was
driving home in traffic and watching all the drivers on the other
side with phones in their ear. :-)

[chaska]

9. Well, I'm glad to see some folks here in our little refuge.

I had planned to write about something else entirely tonight, but....

I go a response from my mother. First, she thought I was depressed. I actually was rather elated that I had made this breakthrough. But that's neither here nor there....

Getting even more personal: When I was a kid - 13-ish - my parents were worried that I spent so much time alone. I used to lock myself up in my room and read. And being a Southerner I guess reading ain't normal - Ha!!! couldn't resist :^). Anyway, a few years later, my "odd behavior" unchanged, they took me to see a psychologist/psychiatrist/whatever. I can't remember how long I saw him, a couple of months maybe. Got absolutely nothing out of it. I can't find a lot to love with that profession. Sorry.

So now, in the response to my letter my mom tells me that the psyche-guy told her that I would always be a loner. (?!?!?!) He never told me that! When I think of all the pain I went through in my life fighting what to this guy was apparently very obvious, it kind of pisses me off. Like I said to my mother, knowing that I won't be happy in an extroverted environment, I can channel my efforts much more effectively. I really went through some shit, ya'll; trying to fit in, and wondering why I never really could. Does anyone else ever find themselves wondering, when in the company of others who are having a great time, why it is that you're, at best, only mildly amused and at worst bored out of your mind?

That said, I'm a firm believer (I think ;^) that there are benefits and detriments to any and every situation you find yourself in. So despite any pain, it's past, and whatever good there is in me is there in part because of that pain. In short, ain't no thang.

Quick left turn here: I don't want to give the impression that I'm some nutcase. Far from it. In fact, one of the odd things in my past relationships with others is that I could never figure out why these normal/cool/hip/attractive/whatever people wanted to interact with me. People always seem to think I'm a cool, approachable, friendly guy, and as misantropes go.... LOL! No, I'm pretty normal actually. I've never had any trouble attracting females, for example. I've not pursued as much as I should have.... Like that article says, just because I like my alone time doesn't mean I hate you. I quite like people on a surface level. It's easy to like people if you don't really get to know them, right? I guess the opposite is true too.

But one point that needs to be made, I think, is that there are no absolutes. I don't think we need any litmus test for membership to this group. Some seem to think that if you don't want to spend 24 hours of every day feeding your pet spiders in some cave that you aren't pure enough to be here. Nobody wants to be alone all the time. I know I don't. I think it is entirely possible for loners to have mates. It's like Katherine Hepburn said of her relationship with Spencer Tracy, "...separate houses, and visit often". They found a way. As long as these two are compatible and allow the necessary space, I can't see why it couldn't work. And that brings me to what I had intended to write about tonight.

To be continued later.

[kaitykaity]

11. When I was that age (13-ish) and we went to any

gathering, family or otherwise, the question always got asked,
Where's Dawn? The answer was always the same. "She's off
somewhere reading a book."

Now I really do live in a cave of sorts. I have an apartment
that's a basement apartment. The house was built half in in the
ground, and so the eye level of my windows is ground level for
everyone else. Most of the time nobody even knows there's an
apartment in here.

I keep it dark, never open the blinds. My mom and my friend
used to bitch at me every time they came over to open some
windows and turn on some lights. After a gazillion repetitions
they've finally gotten the message.

Sorry to hear about the therapist not telling you about your
lonerism. That sucks.

Keep up the good stories. Everything seems to be straight
spot on.

;)

[chaska]

14. You freak!

I looked at some places like you describe when I lived in Seattle. I can't deal without having sunlight. I used to work in various factories and warehouses. I finally got to the point where I just would not even consider working in a building without windows. I would get very depressed without the sun.

Odd bit o' info du jour: There's this great book called 'A Pattern Language'. It's primarily about architecture, but is very wide ranging. It goes into great detail about how many windows on how many sides of a room, what type and shapes of windows, how big, etc. are required for a successful room. Light is very important.

...Everybody I ever met from Portland (a grand total of 2, now) has been strange. ;^)

Portland's a great city. Much better than Seattle.

[DemExpat]

16. I live pretty far north too - on the same latitude as Seattle, I believe,

and when looking for a house here 20 years ago I picked the one we live in - with huge picture windows facing SOUTH.....I love the sun streaming in, or just the daylight when it is gloomy...

DemEx

[kaitykaity]

17. Portland's the best kept secret in the world

We like it that way. :evilgrin:

I like Seattle's downtown better. All of those hills.
And of course being a baseball fan...

If I had to live in a place with lots of windows, I want
a loft -- a big one. A cavernous space, you know?

[chaska]

10. Here's the two articles DemExpat asked to see again.

http://www.learningplaceonline.com/relationships/friends/caring-introvert.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=281x62#91

I have no idea why the italics happened in the message above.

[DemExpat]

12. Thanks, Chaska, I will read these later.....

too much to do to be ready for the Christmas get-togethers coming up - 2 full days of people around me and nice dinners to prepare and serve!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I do love it, though, celebrations like this.....

DemEx

[chaska]

13. Good for you. I envy you.

I just can't deal with some of my family. I would love to spend Christmas with people that I genuinely care about. Alas, they are scattered to the four winds, what few they are. But that's okay, I'll be fine alone.

[DemExpat]

15. I didn't like them in my youth....

but now, since our parents are gone, and all siblings are also spread to the four winds, we celebrate with our 2 kids and good friends.

No bad old shit to deal with with these people....:-)

I hope you have a nice Christmas.

:hi:

DemEx

[LWolf]

19. These are GREAT.

Some of my favorite <snips>:

Extroverts are easy for introverts to understand, because extroverts spend so much of their time working out who they are in voluble, and frequently inescapable, interaction with other people. They are as inscrutable as puppy dogs. But the street does not run both ways. Extroverts have little or no grasp of introversion. They assume that company, especially their own, is always welcome. They cannot imagine why someone would need to be alone; indeed, they often take umbrage at the suggestion. As often as I have tried to explain the matter to extroverts, I have never sensed that any of them really understood. They listen for a moment and then go back to barking and yipping.

Inscrutable as puppy dogs; barking and yipping. :P

The worst of it is that extroverts have no idea of the torment they put us through. Sometimes, as we gasp for air amid the fog of their 98-percent-content-free talk, we wonder if extroverts even bother to listen to themselves. Still, we endure stoically, because the etiquette books—written, no doubt, by extroverts—regard declining to banter as rude and gaps in conversation as awkward. We can only dream that someday, when our condition is more widely understood, when perhaps an Introverts' Rights movement has blossomed and borne fruit, it will not be impolite to say "I'm an introvert. You are a wonderful person and I like you. But now please shush."

Please, someone, send this to my mom. It can't come from me.

Extroverts talk in order to think. And with most extroverts, what you see is what you get. Introverts are driven to distraction by the semi-internal dialogue extroverts tend to conduct. Introverts don't outwardly complain, instead roll their eyes and silently curse the darkness.

Introverts think before they talk. And sometimes that means they don't say a lot, especially if there's they are engaging an extrovert willing to do all the talking.

What a contrast; a beautiful portrait of my mother the extrovert, and me.

Guess what? I am literally the ONLY family member my extroverted mother has, outside of my 2 sons. It's always been that way. I left home at 17, tired of being the only person around to fill all of her needs; which, in retrospect, was just one need: the need to be "energized" by interactions with family: me. It was another 2 1/2 decades before I truly understood why, when I visited her, or she visited me, more than 24 hours left us both on edge; me, because she sucked up all my "space" like a vampire. She, because she kept poking me with the stick to get the interactions she needed to feed off of, and I promptly pulled into my shell, leaving her frustrated as well. Even the bathroom was no escape; she'd stand outside the door to talk while I used the toilet, or come inside to talk while I was in the shower. Or come sit on the edge of the bed to talk when I took a book to bed for the evening.

It's been a relief to discover that I really do love and appreciate my mother, and to find ways to cope with her different needs.

[LWolf]

18. I'll look for the articles.

I've spent 44 years dealing with the conflict inherent in being an introvert; happier on my own, social/cultural expectation that I need people.

I was married twice; once to an extrovert, once to an introvert. The extrovert drove me crazy; he got bored if no one was interacting with him, so he'd do things to get my attention; kind of like stirring up an anthill with a stick, he wasn't happy unless there was "something going on." After 10 years, it was a relief to leave the deliberate chaos behind.

2nd marriage...to an introvert. Better, but I never did figure out which need I wasn't filling, until 12 years down the line he found someone else to fill that need and booted me out. He wanted an extrovert. Someone to be in charge of planning, organizing, and creating a social life for us, so that he didn't have to. I was supposed to invite friends and family over and entertain them, and show up and be bright and bubbly when we were invited, so that he could stay safely in the background. Except that I didn't, and he didn't like the "unsociable" rep we got. Apparently, he wasn't as far over on the introvert scale as I thought; he was just socially passive .

The best living relationship I've had is with my youngest son, also and introvert; we lived together for 3 years after my last divorce in this tiny cottage. We shared space well; we could go for days without talking, and no one was offended. We knew instinctively how to stay out of each other's "space." And, when one of us surfaced and contacted the other, we enjoyed each other's company; no pressure.

I don't expect to find a job that allows me to work alone; my profession is a calling, and interactions with others are an integral part. So I guard my off-work time jealously, sharing time with others very sparingly.

Honestly, if I didn't have to work for a living, I could easily be a happy hermit, totally closing the rest of the world out.

[catchnrelease]

20. Oh, an AHA moment!!

Chaska, you said: "My skills are special but not
valued by our society. And even to the extent they
are, introverts aren't ones to promote themselves, to
put themselves out there. We aren't the type who say
"Look at me, ain't I great? Give me money." "

When I was younger, I did a bit of drawing/illustration for fun and sometimes profit. (Mainly graphite and colored pencil of wildlife) I can't tell you how many times people would say "Why aren't you doing this for a living?" "You should be selling your work"..... They could never understand that I would rather die than go out and sell/promote my stuff. Even then I would say that to make it in the art world you have to get out and push and I didn't want to do that.

It just now dawns on me, with your post, that it was the introvert thing that prevented me from doing it. I thought I was just being lazy. The times that I have sold things more recently (cloth dolls/decorated gourds) was usually in a craft type sale where I could go with a friend and all the attention was NOT on me. Hmmmm interesting.

[chaska]

21. Hey, that's great!

Glad you got something out of that. I want to get further into this line of thinking, explore it a little more. I think there is lots of room for growth on my part from this. I'm really looking forward to the book you recommended, if the durn library ever opens again.

So you're crafty, huh? Gourds??? Something tells me you're not in LA. I used to watch the auctions of this teenage girl that makes these sort of goth cloth dolls. She's really good, but I was shocked at the prices she used to get. I could have bought a few when she first started, but then she started getting well over $100 per doll. That's a bit rich for my blood.

I don't normally play with dolls - in fact, it was pure accident that I discovered her - but I do admire talent. Unfortunately, I've lost touch. I can't remember her ebay name and can't seem to find her. Last time I looked there was someone copying her work. Sorta P'ed me O.

So, big fisher girl, are ya? If it weren't for your avatar I'd think that you were talking about men. :evilgrin: You women, it's all about the hunt, chew 'em up and spit 'em out, wham bam thank you ... sir.

...maybe it's just the women I meet. Hmm....

[catchnrelease]

22. Introvert book etc

Well, not LA but close--Long Beach. The gourds come from a grower down in Fallbrook, altho' I did grow some last year just to try it. Got a buttload of small ones. I have to confess that in the last year or so I haven't done any artwork due to spending too much time reading the forums here and politically oriented books. I was really hoping to see Bush go, if for no other reason than that I could have my life back!!!

The Introvert Advantage is a fascinating book, IMO. I have been highlighting parts to show my SO, to explain why I do or don't do things. He is an extrovert which fortunately has worked out fine so far. (He can "hold court" with a group of people and I can just hang out and listen or wander off......) Anyway, one of the best things is that the book explains how the two types differ when it comes to argueing or debating, what ever you want to say. Because of the difference in the length of the pathways that the neurotransmitter dopamine takes, introverts' being longer than extro's, it takes us longer to get our thoughts together coherently to come back with a response. In other words, snappy repartee is not an intro's best skill. There's lots more, but you can read it for yourself when you get a hold of the book.

No, lol, catchnrelease doesn't refer to men. I do love to fish, for trout specifically. Actually could care less about eating them, I like the sport and think the fish are beautiful. It's more about being out in the places where the fishing is done. You being a hiker know what I mean.

[marions ghost]

23. fascinating...thanks

I will read the book. I often have the sensation that I am not as quick to corral thoughts as others and don't excel at snappy repartee (or at least I'm aware of having to work at it when it manages to be snappy). I can believe it's a difference in brain-gearing, since the contrast is very clear and consistent. I used to feel "inferior" in social interactions becasue of this. However now when I do have something to say, I'm coming to understand that it's not a lesser contribution because it took a little more time. Sometimes these days I even get some credit for having voiced a less obvious, perhaps more lateral angle on whatever the subject is. It would be helpful if in group dynamics, extroverts were advised to solicit the input of introverts, rather than just running the show by and for extroverts. I think some management courses actually teach this now. What happens when an introvert must lead a group of extroverts? The point was made that most politicians are extroverts. I wonder if that is part of John Kerry's image problem--he comes off like a (non-shy)introvert next to Shrub's extroversion.
I'll put this up as a forum topic.