Pricing art - need help here

[October]

OK. This is always difficult for me.

I've been commissioned to do some work for a friend starting her own business. She LOVES my drawings and wants to use them in her upcoming 'catalog,' for media kits, etc.

Generally, I make paintings (pastelist) and charge depending on size, time, etc.

But these are relatively small ink drawings (5x7), and take about 3-4 hours a piece tops. I think because it's a friend, I'm having difficulty coming up with an hourly rate or a per piece rate.

HELP!

I do sooooo much art for free -- giving away way too much I'm sure.

I worked hard on these pieces -- mental time, sketching time, working out the final, etc. Any ideas?

Thanks!

[mopinko]

1. what can your friend afford?

how does she feel about paying you what you are worth?
if she can afford it, and wants to pay you a fair price, then charge her what you would charge for a similar piece.
even without a track record, and artist ought to get at least $100 for something that takes 3-4 hours. i would ask twice that from someone who was using it for business.

[October]

2. Yes, she can definitely afford me

My friend can definitely afford me and more.

After hours of research, I came up with the same formula as did you.

I worked on the first illustration for 4 hours straight, and thought $25/hour was more than fair. My 2nd drawing took 3 hours.

She said that my fee of $100-120 was her limit. She and her business partner are less comfortable working with an "hourly" figure and would prefer to pay me "per project." They said they have a lot more work for me, and I believe they want to use my illustrations/drawings for an upcoming catalog of their merchandise.

Understandably, it's a new business...and there are start-up costs -- but my artist fees would be 'written off,' wouldn't they?

[mopinko]

3. if she can pay, she should

if you think she will have a going business, tell her how lucky she is to be a patron of the arts. give them a per project price of $200. that way you can feel free to put in that extra effort when you have an inspiration.
she absolutely can write stuff like this off.

[October]

4. Thanks, Mopinko

I appreciate all the feedback and advice.

[mopinko]

5. i know how it is.

artists are mostly good hearted, and are asked to give it away all the time. i do a lot of "good works", everyone i know does.
but, there just won't be art if we NEVER get paid. people who can afford it should be proud to support it.

[October]

6. Here's the other thing

I put 3-4 hours into each of these pieces so far. I completely understand why they'd rather pay me "per project" because I think they want me to do maybe 50 more, and are worried about budgeting for it.

These pieces are for business though, and one of my illustrations will become her "logo." She can use and reuse these illustrations forever, right? So...if anything...she's getting a bargain. Each piece is hand-drawn.

Thanks again for the good counsel.

[Book Lover]

9. If you are creating her business' logotype, you

deserve more than just $100 for it; I wouldn't go lower than $500, and if it were not a friend, it would run closer to $750-1000. This would be with only the barest of collateral; business cards and plain letterhead. You are creating the public graphic presence of their business and should be appropriately compensated.

Per project as opposed to hourly makes sense for both of you; you won't put in more time than they are willing to pay for, and you can determine how much of your time and effort they will get for the money they are paying you.

It sounds like you are illustrating the whole catalog? My advice would be to separate out the logo work from the catalog project and call it two jobs. That catalog work should be priced on a per-piece basis, and I would also suggest clarifying now what future expectations will be. Friends or not, put everything in writing.

on edit: I just re-read your original post and wanted to comment on what you said about understanding that their new business have start-up costs - logo creation *is* one of those start-up costs. They have (or ought to have) money allocated for this.

[October]

11. Thanks Book Lover

Sorry I missed your reply.

I appreciate your advice. And you are right...my work is going to be used is so many ways.

The webpage will feature my drawing.
Each piece of merchandise will have a "tag" with my drawing
Everything in this catalog will have my drawings

I think before I do more work, I need to get something in writing. It's hard when you trust someone. It starts to get "weird." I definitely feel uncomfortable all of the sudden.

By the way, if my drawings are illustrations...are they technically "created." I mean...she loves my "hand," and the way I illustrate her merchandise. Does that change things...if I haven't created the logo?

Thanks again.

[Book Lover]

14. Been there, got burned

I completely agree that you all need to be protected by putting the plan in writing; that way nobody gets surprised. The conversation may start getting weird, though, just as you describe. Stress that this written agreement is to clarify everything that needs to be done, and will help you plan your available time. After all, they are working on a deadline, right?

As for what goes into the agreement, I suggest the deadline, the number of illos, the specs (that is, are you giving them the drawings themselves, scans for web use only, or scans that are print-ready), the rate per image, and clarification of ownership (that is, will their company wholly own the images and have them available for reuse and modification, or will you retain copyright and therefore be able to use and modify the art again?

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you're asking in the last paragraph. It must be the last three nights of 4 hours of sleep, I'm sure...

Best of luck!

[October]

15. I'll try to explain myself

I just re-read that...and it's no wonder you can't understand me.

OK, my friend designs "handbags." I illustrate them in "my hand." I haven't conceptualized her logo -- I've enhanced and drawn her merchandise in my style. I was just wondering if that makes my work any less valuable/important.

She cannot draw, nor does she have the time...so she's "hired" me.

Again, thank you for highlighting what needs to be in writing. This is so very helpful to me!

:)

[jdots]

7. hardest question in art.

Matt Gleason writes for an art mag in L.A. and he said something i thought was good......go for 1/10 the price of the car she drives,sure it's nutty but what makes sence thats why art never dies....they drive a 6 thousand dollar car you charge them 600$.....the people with money now generally don't appreciate the artistic process. Van Gogh never sold a damned thing and his brother was an art dealer.
Also never sell anything you do for cheap like on ebay because that seems to be fanning the flames of anti art.These are my lame opinions which have helped me to maintain obscurity.

[October]

8. Thanks jodts! Some thoughts...

Your last line made me laugh out loud! Obscurity indeed! :)

You are so right -- I've complained for years of how no one wants to pay for art! Like most artists, I do give a lot of art away for free (gifts, etc.), but balance is key. I cannot believe how many people (family mostly) will say "Oh, paint something for me..."

My friend who commissioned my work was a little surprised by my fee of $25/hour. I don't know if that's because she doesn't understand the value of art and/or my time, or because she was thinking I'd give her a deep, deep discount because we're friends. (Her 'business company' is paying me...it's not a personal commission or anything.)

Thinking out loud here...my friend does not have 'original' art on her walls -- do you guys find most of your friends/family have prints instead of paintings in their homes? Honestly, the only people I know who own original art seem to be other artists.

It's like Mc-Art or something! Everyone has the same kind of stuff on their walls.

[EC]

10. look in the

Artist's and Graphic Designer's Market Guide Book, see what the going rate is...

[October]

12. Thanks EC!

I haven't signed anything yet, and I'm glad.

On one hand, I want something in writing...because every time I bring them a new illustration, they LOVE it, and want more! So, everything thus far has been done verbally. Very discomforting. So, while I want something in writing for my own protection, etc., I want to make sure I know what I'm doing BEFORE it gets put into writing.

This is an unusual set of circumstances.

[EC]

13. It's always hard when it's someone

you know or friends. That's why I'd rather do it freelance through long distance, or sell my painting and drawings through the local galleries.