Remodeling a Bathroom: moving plumbing- is it hard?

[lavenderdiva]

Mr. ld and I will be moving into a new home in a couple of months. Its not a 'new' home, as its structure is almost 50 years old, but it will be new to us. It has 2 bathrooms, one with mint green tile, and the other with pepto-bismol pink tile. Needless to say, both bathrooms will need to be remodeled. The master bath is VERY tiny, and we will be knocking out the wall to the adjacent closet to expand it. However, in the remodel we will need to move the existing plumbing, such as the toilet, sink, etc. Is this something we can accomplish on our own, or is it better to hire a plumber. Mr. ld is very handy, and could probably do it, as he installs irrigation systems as a landscaper/horticulturist. Money is very tight, and we would prefer to do the work on our own, if possible.

Most of the remodel books and shows I've seen, generally leave the fixtures where they were originally, and work around it. But as we will be using more room, we will want to move things around.

I was just wondering if anyone has actually done this, and would share what your experiences were. And things to watch out for....

[Kingshakabobo]

1. I guess it depends a lot on what is underneath???

If you have to bust walls and cut floors it's a big deal. If you do have to do that, you can do the demo your self and have someone do the rough-in?

Do you have access from below( basement? ) or will you have to do demo of floor/ceiling?

[lavenderdiva]

2. no, we don't have access from below...

the house is on a slab, and there is no basement. We will definitely be doing the demo. Maybe I've been watching too many DIY Bathroom Remodel programs, but it seems like we could do the renoation ourselves. The only hitch would be moving the existing plumbing. So far, I've not been able to find a book that specifically lays out what we should do, or find a television program that explains fully how to do this.

I know there are SO many talented do-it-yourself DUers, that I thought I would bring this problem to this forum, and get some insight...

[NMDemDist2]

3. i've done lots of finish plumbing and watched the rough ins done

it might be worth doing your demo and hire a plumber for the rough in and then finish everything else your self

[unhappycamper]

8. I'll second this recommendation.

A licensed plumber will do the work and make sure it conforms to your local regulations. Make sure you get an inspection before you close everything up.

[Kingshakabobo]

4. I guess you can "trench" through the concrete floors.

It won't be as easy as working from unfinished space below but at least you won't have to cut floor joists. You will need a gasoline powered concrete saw and an small electric jack-hammer - most likely a "Bosch" gun. You should be able to rent the saw and Bosch at a rental center. You'll have to "score" the concrete as deep as possible and break it out with the gun. You COULD use a skill(more powerful saw) saw with a masonry blade in lieu of the concrete saw but I wouldn't recommend it. The concrete saw will have a diamond tipped blade and will be MUCH faster. Either way, you are looking at a lot of dust - maybe try applying some water(not if you are using the electric skill saw).

If it were me. I would do the demo and trenching/digging and pay a plumber to do the rough-in. But that's me. If your husband is OK with copper/PVC you should be OK. If you are moving the waste line you have to make sure it's pitched JUST right. Not too much pitch or else the water gets ahead of the waste and the waste sticks to the pipe.

[lavenderdiva]

5. those are really good tips...

Mr. ld works with PVC all the time, and is very comfortable with it. But your tip about the pitch is very good.

I've been watching a lot of the DIY Bathroom Remodel programs, and while involved, they don't look that hard. I don't know if I'm too ambitious though!

I've been trying to learn how to use this 'Punch!' design program we got, and its very hard. I thought that would help to visualize how the bathroom would look.

We will also be remodeling the kitchen! We will definitely have our work cut out for us!!

[Kingshakabobo]

6. I would DEFINITELY get a plumbing book or some other...

....reference for the pitch thingy. There is some formula....not too much, not too little....juuuuust right.

I don't think there is such a thing as TOO ambitious. You can do just about anything if you take it slow and do it right.....and do your research. After all, none of this stuff is brain surgery. The good pros make it look easy and do it fast.


I'll be tackling an 8ft. by 8ft. room and rooftop deck on top of my Chicago condo...hopefully before winter sets in. My partner thinks I'm crazy. We already built a 5ft. by 5ft. skylight shaft so this will be similar but larger in scale.........of course, he wanted to kill me because we did it on the hottest days of the year. This time, I'm waiting for fall weather.

[lavenderdiva]

7. sounds like you'll do fine,

because you've already done it, basically, on a smaller scale- AND in the heat! You're smart to wait for cooler weather. We're hoping to get in the house before Christmas, and depending on how much money we have to put towards the renovation, hope to get started ASAP.

edit to add: when you're done with your addition to the rooftop, you'll be able to enjoy it next Spring!

[eleny]

11. We had a bathroom redone and we're also on a slab

Dealing with trenching the floor and getting all the pipes in correctly looked like something best left to the professionals. We're very glad we did. I'm with Warpy and Husb on this one. I doubt you'll find a tv show or book to show you exactly how to do it for your location. No wet blanket here. It just might be way more fun to have the rough-in done by a seasoned plumbing contractor and then do the fun finishing projects.

I wish I had a photo of the guy our contractor hired to do the trenching. He was literally sealed into the bathroom to keep the concrete dust from traveling to the rest of the house. I never saw a dirtier, sweatier person. He sure had my respect.

Whatever you decide, I hope it's a great project and remember this - we want pictures!

[lavenderdiva]

13. thanks for sharing, eleny-

was the contractor you hired expensive? I'm going to have a hard time convincing Mr. ld that this is the way to go. He's someone who thinks he can do everything, but nothing gets finished. He thinks he can do it to save money, and then the project will get started, with no end in sight, and in the end it would have been better to shell out the cash, and the project would have been finished. ya know what I'm sayin'?

When we actually move into the house, I'll post some pictures. Its a couple of months off, but we're thinking ideas and plans already-

[eleny]

16. Our bath redo was part of a much larger project

We had a lot done to the house. All the pipes were replaced in the house along with a ceiling replacement and flooring. I can't isolate the one bathroom.

What I would suggest is to get several bathroom contractors out to discuss what you have in mind. Estimates are free and you'll learn a lot about your home. Let them know that what you need is the roughing in. Tell them you want them to have a permit. That will put you on solid footing, knowing how big the project will be and how much cost you're looking at.

[Warpy]

9. If you're on a slab, you're going to have to hire someone

Moving the toilet involves more than moving the water supply, you also have to move the vent stack and the pipe to the sewer. The only way to do that is to jackhammer through the slab. It's a really big deal.

You need to talk to a contractor to see what's involved. My guess is those bathrooms won't look nearly so bad after you do, just paint, tile, and lighting will fix em just fine, uh-huh.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. A few more thoughts ....

Jackhammering the slab may **seem** a DIY thing, but it isn't. Is there any rebar in it? Probably not, but you never know.

Once the slab is cut, you may or may not have ongoing water infiltration issues. You also don't just cut the saw cuts straight down. They are often cut at an angle (like a dovetail joint) to lock the patch in place. How thick is the slab? You may or may not have to go all the way through it. If the pipe gets set in soil, there may be code issues around how you need to set it (gravel, sand, etc.). How is the patch made? Rebar into the existing slab? Just the dovetail?

Where is the vent stack? Can you do a loop vent and salvage the old stack? Got enough pitch in the pipe? You don't want poopies backing up in the terlit drain, yanno?

Now ..... I'm a huge fan of those colored bathroom tiles from the 20s through the 50s. If it were me, I'd do anything possible to keep the pink and green colored stuff. Even to the point of expanding the bath into a sort of two-room arrangement to try to keep intact as much of what's there as possible.

All in all ..... I;d hire a good plumber used to working on that kind of house. Get him to do just the rough-ins. The rest is easy and is little more than just carpentry that any handy homeowner can do. Its that code crap that'll bite ya.

[lavenderdiva]

14. wow. Husb2Sparkly, you have put the fear of God in me!

All the points you make are REALLY good ones. I know nothing about a vent stack. Aside: I just asked Mr. ld what a vent stack was, and he thinks its something that comes off the roof? I know you are probably laughing just now!

I've seen many beautiful baths with gorgeous tilework from the 20s and 30s, and unfortunately, this house doesn't have that. Its just lots of pepto-bismol pink in one bathroom, and lots of mint green tile in the other. There's nothing redeeming about either one. They are worn and chipped, and nasty. I've seen lots of very pretty deco baths with mosaic floors, and cute tile borders, etc. but they didn't include any of that in these 2 baths.

Beginner question: where do I find out the codes for bathrooms and kitchens for my area? :hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

15. You can get code info from your local building department

It may even be online. Some jurisdictions simply 'adopt' a standard code written by a specialist group (Universal Building Code (UBC), Southern Building Code (SBC), etc.), some adopt one these codes with modifications, and some write thier own codes completely. The codes aren't 'secret' so should be readily available.

Altenatively, you could call your local building department and tell them what you want to do and then ask what code applies to that work.

(Note: I use the term 'building department' but it may be called something else where you are. In all cases, it would be the same group that issues building permits and performs inspections.)

[Lefty48197]

21. This really isn't that big a project

I run building and remodeling projects for a living, and this sounds like a pretty simple one. There is one major variable:

Can you properly install the sanitary sewer line?

If you're moving your toilet closer to the main, then you shouldn't really have a problem. If you're moving it farther away, then it all depends on how deep the existing pipes are installed. If the sewer lead to the toilet is currently installed as high as it could be installed, and you're trying to move it even farther away, then you just can't accomplish what you need to do.

I would hire a professional to cut the concrete with a wet saw. Figure about 300 bucks +. I would also hire a plumber to do the work. Talking to the plumbers on local construction sites is a way to find one who would give you a good price. Consider yourself lucky if he/she will do the entire job for under $500.

Repour the concrete yourself. Keep it down about 1/4 inch from the existing, and have your flooring installer bring it up the last 1/4 inch with Ardox "floor stone".

[lavenderdiva]

22. thanks, Lefty48197-

you have some really good points- Our move has been delayed by a few months, so we will probably be moving in sometime before next March. We thought it would be sooner. However, the bathrooms will definitely need to be remodeled. Your input is really great, and I appreciate your sharing it! :hi:

ps. It the Ardox 'floor stone', some sort of pourable self-leveling thing?

[Lefty48197]

23. Exactly

Usually the people repouring the concrete don't care as much as the person installing the flooring, so that's why I have them pour it low, and let the flooring expert prep the surface below his product.

[wildeyed]

17. I love those retro bathrooms, too.

If I had one, I wouldn't change it unless it was in really bad condition. Seems like they are coming back into style, too. I had one in a rental in college and I very carefully cleaned and sealed all the grout work to get it looking nice. Bet the apartment manager didn't know what to make of that after I moved.

[Dora]

12. Hire a plumber.

There is no substitute for professional experience and know-how, no matter how handy a layman might be. I mean no offense to your husband's skills, as I'm married to a handyish man myself. However, it only takes one "uh-oh" to make the difference between a fun DIY experience and a costly repair. Trust me.

I'm in agreement with H2S about the tile. Our house was built in '58 and the bathroom walls and vanity are covered with a sage green thickset tile (walls tiled 2/3 up, not to the ceiling). The craftsmanship is excellent, and it was one of the features that attracted me to the house. Alas, I know the vanity and linen closet must be torn out and rebuilt due to termite damage, and I'm secretly hoping that the tile countertop can be salvaged and recycled as the counter for whatever new vanity we build in there.

Perhaps your color issues can be mitigated by the accessories you bring into the bathroom. Our sage green tile walls are balanced by a white tile floor, and tub/toilet/sink are all white as well. The paint is white, and the room has ample sunlight coming from a SE facing window. If it were a darker room, I probably wouldn't be as fond of the color. I know that it is an awful lot of green, and the room is small, so I've dealt with it by putting art on the walls that is complimentary, but is not green, and our towels, rug, and window curtain coordinate with each other, rather than the tile.

[wildeyed]

18. After renovating two houses, here is my system.

We don't do plumbing other than the most basic, ie. hooking up new faucets, and we don't do electric. I hire pros for those jobs, do the rest myself, time permitting. The plumbing and electric take forever to figure out, and if you do it wrong, you might have to pull out all of the new work to correct the problems. Plus the electric is dangerous.

Another good reason to hire a pro, you are going to have a lot of work ahead of you. We just redid our 1960's master bath. Ended up taking it down to the studs and replacing the sub flooring. It took up every weekend for I don't know how long. It is basically a part time job, and what with already having a job and raising children, it became very onerous and tiring. If we had tried to plumb, too, well.........

Here are a few of the many threads on that project. Good luck!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=287x2401#2405

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=287x3023

[Longhorn]

19. As you know, my husband is a remodeling contractor and he has

the knowledge and capability of doing such a job himself but he said he would hire a plumber. He said the most he might do is the jackhammering but if you don't have experience with one, you can do damage to pipes and beams. He said beyond simple repairs, plumbing is something best left to a plumber.

Good luck!

[Lefty48197]

20. I would at least consult with an actual plumber

You can do just about anything with water lines, but the drain pipes have to have a certain pitch, and you have far less options with them, so make sure it's going to work before you go ahead with the project.