I'm in love with a house needs a lot of TLC.

[MelissaB]

We're moving out of state...from Alabama to Michigan. When hubby went up for the interview I looked for houses. I drove around, looked around, and only asked to see one because I know how much trouble people go through to show their house, and I didn't know that hubby had the job yet. As soon as I walked in the house I was in love. The real estate agent said they had shown the house probably 100 times and most people walked out. It needs that much work.

I guess what attracted me to the house was the beautiful woodwork. I had never seen anything like it. The wood work is the only thing that is in good shape. There is no way to live in the house as it is. It needs plaster work in every room. Some rooms are worse than others. All the bathrooms need to be refinished. The floors need to be redone. It needs a new kitchen, heating system, and needs insulation, etc. You get the picture.

After Tony was offered the job we went back up and this was still my favorite house. We contacted a contractor who called us about a week later and said that we could spend $200,000 on the house and it still may not be done. I was shocked. I was willing to put $100,000, but $200,000 is out of our budget. He said the porch needs to be replaced and that may be $20,000 alone. He said that you never know what you get into in these old houses until you start. On a positive note, the electrical has been redone, it has a new roof, and the basement doesn't leak. Am I crazy to continue to want this house or should I get another contractor in there for an estimate? From an emotional and aesthetic point of view, it's my dream house, so it's hard to let go. From a practical point of view, I don't want a money pit.

Here's a photo of her:



If anybody has "been there, done that" I like to hear from you. FYI: I've lived in a 100 year old house that needed work, but it wasn't this bad.

[MelissaB]

1. More info:

Type: Site Built
Total Bedrooms: 6
Total Bathrooms: 2
Basement: Yes
Car Storage Capacity: 0 Garage Storage Type: None
Age: 50+ Style:
Waterfront: No # of Acres:
Year Built: 1902
Total SqFt.: 3,346
Lot Size: 75 x 152.9


Area: 12 - Sault Ste. Marie (East) Zoning: Res. School District: Sault Ste Marie
Tax ID: 051-391-012-00 Homestead (Y/N): Y Mineral Rights(Y/N):
Lake/River Name: Special Assessment: Unknown Annual $:
Terms Remaining: Taxes: 1,600 Tax Year: 2005
Directions: deleted

Public Remarks: Historic Sault home built in 1902 and updated extensively over the past 5 years. List of recent updates at office. Their is still work to be done and fun to be had doing it. Some of the special priceless features include original woodwork, 5 fireplaces, leaded glass windows, grand entry stairway, hardwood floors and more.

Heating: Hot Water; Natural Gas
Water: City
Sewer: City
Foundation: Full Basement; Stone Foundation
Interior: Cable; Ceiling Fan; Hardwood Floors; Smoke Detector; Walk-in Closet
Windows: Single Pane; Storm Windows
Laundry: Basement
Fireplace: Fireplace; Free Standing; In Living Room; In Master Bedroom
Terms: Cash; Conventional
Showing Instructions: Appointment Only
Possession: 30 Days
Patio/Deck: Porch Covered
Landscaping: Lawn; Trees
Exterior: Wood
Room Name Room Level No. of Rooms Length Width Area Room Remarks
Bedroom 1 2 13 13
Bedroom 2 2 13 15
Bedroom 3 2 11 13 fireplace
Bedroom 4 2 11 12
Bedroom 1 2 13 14
Room Name Room Level No. of Rooms Length Width Area Room Remarks
Bedroom 2 3 13 13
Kitchen 1 14 22 kitchen-dining
Living Room 1 14 30 pocket doors - fireplace
Other Room 1 1 10 13 formal dining

[NMDemDist2]

2. what are comparable properties going for in good condition? will the

bank give you a construction loan in addition to the selling price mortgage?

I'd need all that info before I could even begin to try and make a decision in your shoes

she's a beauty though,...

[MelissaB]

3. The list price for this one is $135,000. There's no way it will sell for that. We looked at one

two doors down for $164,900. It was pretty and in good shape, but not restored the way I think it should have been. The wood work color was so horrible that it looked fake (to me). Also, the kitchen was dreadful with the cheapest cabinets ever. They looked plastic. Other than those two things, it was fine and I could live in it.

House prices there seem reasonable. The problem is there isn't really any new construction except on the river, and that's high $$. Actually, it's not really a problem for me because I love old houses. We built the house we are currently in to look similar to one that we had in the historic district here in Florence. The good thing is the low maintance of brick and very few other problems with the house because it's new. On the other hand, the beautiful house in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan needs so much work that she could be considered new.

Also, we looked at 8-9 houses while we were there. All of them needed something.

A little background on the house: Her previous owner is a minister who got a divorce and moved to another city. She's been vacant for a while and I think the previous owner really needs to get rid of her. My problem is that I'm such a softie that I didn't want to make a low ball offer. That changed after talking to the contractor.

Info about me: I'm becoming a stay at home mommie after the move. That was part of the deal with my hubby. He will be dean of the math and science dept. there, and I'll do the things I've missed out on for a while like field trips with the kids. I also have a business idea brewing in my head. I said all of that to say that our next house won't cost as much as what we're living in now because we'll be loosing one income, but I can be there to supervise any home improvement that I can't do myself.



Edited to add another list.

Things this house needs:

1. New heating system. It has radiators and the system in the basement is old and not efficient and should be zoned for each floor.
2. Plaster work in every room or sheetrock. The contractor recommended sheetrock.
3. Updated bathrooms
4. Kitchen - It can be designed the way I want it because the previous owner just put a few things in.
5. Hubby wants the basement finished because it gives him the willies. We would put our treadmill down there.
6. The third floor needs a lot of work. It is plumbed for a kitchen and bathroom, but we'd just put a bathroom up there. The previous owner tried to do some sheetrock work that will have to be taken out, too.
7. The house needs insulation in the walls. It has NONE. Some people up there have it blown in from the outside by plugging the house. My thoughts right now are to go in through the plaster and have them blow it in that way because the plaster needs so much work anyway.
8. There's a room on the back of the house that probably needs to be taken off and rebuilt to make a family room. I don't know that it can be saved.
9. Garage. We'd have to add one.

Well, it's a heck of a list, isn't it? I just kept adding and adding. :(

Also, yes, we could get a construction loan. I'm just afraid that if we had to sell this house in a few years that nobody would buy it because most houses there are under $200,000 right now. On the other hand, I haven't looked at any house that would be as nice as this on when fixed up.

[TygrBright]

4. With a list like that, you're up to $200,000 already and that's without...

...the inevitable cost overruns and delays and add-ons. And there WILL be add-ons, once you start working some contractor will come to you with a worried look and say "We're ready to do X, but I think you need to come and look at Y before we start. You could be wasting your money to do X without doing Y."

That said, I understand your falling in love. Some questions to ask yourself:

1. Are we really okay with living in a construction zone for a couple of years, with all the mess and noise and dust and financial stress that implies?

2. How long are we likely to be living here? Is this the "last house" we'll buy before the nest empties and we look at downsizing?

3. Is our financial situation secure enough to carry the mortgage-plus-construction loans AND give us the sudden access to large wads of cash we'll need from time to time?

4. How active is the local remodeling/construction market and is there good availability of competent contractors and skilled tradesfolk?

5. Can we do any of this ourselves?

6. Can we defer any of it? Plan a 3 or 4 year schedule and refinance as needed? Is our credit rating and income suitable for refinancing in a couple of years?

7. What direction is the neighborhood going in? How can you tell? How close is it to whatever the action is in the area? How quickly is real estate moving there?

Looking at that list, I'd prioritize the heating system, insulation and good weatherstripping, and possibly window replacement --which isn't on the list but if those windows are old, you're wasting money on heating and weatherization improvements. Also, since you say you're moving there from Alabama, if there is a way you can do the garage ASAP I'd prioritize that. You're probably not prepared for what winter in MI will throw at you and it will save much agony. Is there any way you can replace that "room on the back?" with a garage that has a second-story rumpus room over it for the kids?

After that, I'd move on to the bathrooms and I think it would pay well in the long run to add another bathroom for a total of 4, if there is any way you can do so. A 6 bedroom house with only 3 bathrooms (especially if one is on the ground floor where there are no bedrooms) is not going to appeal to many folks who really NEED a 6 bedroom house. And if you're having two bathrooms re-done and another added anyway, you can get some economies of scale on that.

If the walls are in really really bad shape I'd go with sheetrock replacement for the plaster, it will cost less and offer you a bit more versatility, especially if you need to expand/update things like wiring and plumbing. Also, if the kids throw something heavy, it's easier to patch! If you have a reliable contractor for that you can do it in chunks.

If you can bear it, wait on the kitchen. Get decent appliances and upgrade the lighting if you have to, buy an inexpensive island if counter space is short, but wait on cabinets, flooring, etc. A house of that era likely has a pantry and or other storage options and you can always buy ugly but serviceable cabinets, dressers, etc. at the thrift shop for now.

If you don't need all those bedrooms immediately, put the treadmill in one of them and leave the basement for last. I know it's creepy-looking (I grew up with one of those...) but it's the thing that will give you the least return on investment.

Best of luck to you whatever you decide!

advisably,
Bright

[MelissaB]

8. Well, here goes...

Thanks so much for all the information. I do appreciate it.


1. I don't want to live in a construction zone for that long.

2. The length of time we'll be there depends on my husbands career. He may decide to stay there or to continue climbing the academic ladder. I think we'll be there for at least 6 years, though. The minimum time would be 3-4 years. That's how long he'd need to be in this position before applying for the next step.

3. We are pretty secure financially or will be when we sell the house we're living in now. We'll have some $$ to put into the house in addition to purchasing it.

4. I don't know about the local remodeling. The contractor I used was recommended by a couple of people at the university who had used him and said he was very good.

5. I can do some myself, but not a lot. I'm good for painting and other simple jobs. I might could tile. Hubby can't do anything. ;)

6. Our credit rating is good, but I'd like to do this all at once and get it over. I could delay the kitchen because the current owner put some new stuff in.

7. It's a buyer's market there right now which is good for us. The agent we're working with said a couple of years ago everything was snaped up as soon as it went on the market. Also, one of the professors at the university who has lived in several cities across the US said she has seen a lot of California tags lately and has heard of people coming in and snapping up a lot of houses under $100,00. I guess they are prospecting.


Also, two of those bedrooms on the second floor would become a master suite. It only makes sense to me. In addition, I think the kids would want their bedrooms on the third floor which leave the addtional space for a guest room and maybe a study???

[phylny]

19. Please think twice about letting the kids sleep on the third floor.

When we built our current house three years ago, we were considering putting a bedroom and bathroom on the third floor of the house for one of our daughters, but after speaking to our builder, we decided against it. Unless there are fire escapes, our builder described the third floor as a firetrap, and he was right.

Good luck with your decision.

[Warpy]

5. It seems to me that you'll need to keep looking

since you have plans other than cooling your heels in a cheap apartment for a year while that house is brought up to the point you'd be able to live in it while the rest of the construction is ongoing. You need something you can move into, and that place sounds like a disaster area you wouldn't even be able to camp out in.

The $164,000 house would be a better deal. Woodwork can be refinished slowly while you live in the house. The kitchen cabinets could be replaced rather quickly, as long as you aren't moving plumbing and gas lines while doing it. In any case, it sounds like the rest of it is quite livable and wouldn't cost you more than the house is worth in upgrading.

[MelissaB]

9. That's exactly what the practical part of me says.

[Warpy]

10. Another thing to consider is that the upgrades

that were finished by that last happy homeowner might have hidden flaws within the walls, and half assed electrical work that isn't up to code can be hideously expensive to correct if it doesn't burn the place down, first. The giveaway that it might be the case is the shoddiness of the visible work.

Let somebody with an old house hobby who inherited millions buy that place. Really.

[bleedingheart]

6. where in Michigan is this house? (you can pm me the location)

my inlaws live in Grand Rapids...the bought a huge home and put a lot of money into it and it is now worth double what the invested..because the neighborhood has improved so much...

Now the key is doing the re-do properly...and it is likely to cost you $200K...now that doesn't mean all at once....but if you want it done so that you can live in it forever...then it should be done properly.....plus you may be able to do some of the work yourself...if you are interested...

I have known builders who have "shoddily" redone old homes and it costs even more to fix that...for example I have seen people put plasterboard over old walls rather than tear out the old walls...and in some cases that may work but I have much too often seen it done poorly...

[MelissaB]

7. The house is in Sault Ste Marie, Michigan.

I can't seem to link to it, but here's the company who has it listed. You'll just need to sort through the price to $135,000.

http://www.smith-company.com/main.html

The contractor told me over the phone that if the house was restored it would be worth 1/2 million or million dollars because of the woodwork. That's a big difference in price, but I was so shocked at the $200,000 price tag to restore that I'm not 100% sure. I am pretty sure it was a million, though. Having said that, I'm scared to tie up the money in a house and then have trouble selling it. I know there are never any guarantees. However, I wouldn't restore the house to plan on getting that much money for her. I'd do it because I'd love to live in that house. I would feel honored. I know that sounds strange, but she is a beauty. As long as I could get my $$ back plus a little more I'd be happy.

The neighborhood looks nice. It's only a couple of blocks from St. Mary's river and up the street from that is the Soo Locks and main tourist area with neat shops and restaurants. I really like the area the house is in as well as the house. Also, we would be very close to the bridge that connects Sault Ste Marie, Michigan to the Canadian part of the city.

The thing that bothers me most is we don't know how long we'll be there. Hubby may want to move up to VP or Provost. Only time will tell, but I don't want to uproot the kids too soon. My daughter is 12 and my son is 9. I think I'd like her to finish high school there.

[TygrBright]

11. OK, if yer in "The Soo," what I said about windows, garage, etc....

...goes DOUBLE!

It's not quite as cold there as it is some places, cause of the lake effect, but you'll get long, blustery, VERY snowy winters and many lengthy cold snaps.

A good heating system, tight, energy-efficient windows, and effective, professionally-installed insulation, along with minor stuff like weatherstripping, door thresholds, etc., will pay for itself in a surprisingly short time. Heating bills there can be as brutal as the weather. You may also want to invest in having the roof along the eaves join wired and pointed, which will help with the issue of ice dams forming-- a nasty process that can cost you big bucks if you don't take steps to deal with it promptly.

And you WILL want a garage. Before snow flies. Preferably with not too long a driveway.

I don't know whether you're an Alabama native or just there temporarily, but if you're not experienced with the upper Great Lakes climate, it will really knock you back hard the first couple of years. Being prepared for it, and having the necessities on hand (QUALITY shovels, a good snow thrower, plenty of icemelt, Yaktrax for your shoes, good winter boots & outerwear, etc.) will help.

That applies no matter which house you buy!

warningly,
Bright

[MelissaB]

12. OMG! I've been scared of the winter since Tony got the offer.

I'm actually an Alabama native and you can imagine how much this scares me. Thanks for all the good advice. It will apply now matter which house we choose. The problem is, all of them seem to need work of some kind.

[TygrBright]

13. Upper Great Lakes weather is hard on houses!

But you are in for some nice surprises as well. Those houses are built way more solidly and sturdily than those in nicer climates, especially the older ones.

You have to allow for different types of maintenance, and it can be more costly if you don't make the right investments from the start. Investments in quality will pay for themselves. Get GOOD quality windows, the best heating system you can afford, etc. It will pay off.

The hardest thing on houses there is not the cold or the snow, it is the freeze/thaw cycle. You will get thaws even in midwinter, and since those are usually short, you get ice. Ice expands. Ice is heavy. You want good runoff so that melting ice drains away from house foundations, roofs, driveways, walks, etc., as quickly as possible. Check around eaves and gutters for signs of rot and poor maintenance. Around window frames for signs of water seepage.

And you will get used to the cold and snow... you might even get to like it! It can be fun. Make a pact with yourselves to learn at least one fun thing to do in the snow-- cross-country skiing is a great family recreation and will teach you to look forward to snow. Sledding. Ice fishing. Snowshoeing. The air gets crisp and bracing and the sun reflecting on the snow fills the world with brilliant, sparkling light. Christmases are beautiful.

Have your car(s) winterized. Get a headblock heater, especially if you don't have a nice tight, warm garage. One of those remote-starter gadgets could be a great Christmas present.

Plan your vacation(s)--if you get one-- for March, because that's when you'll be tired of winter.

And oh, you will learn to LOVE Spring in a whole new way. Plant snowdrops and crocuses and daffodils and watch for them. Put up a couple of bird feeders and keep track of when you see the first migratory birds returning. Track when you hear the chickadee calls change to "Spring's here!"

Prepare your house for mud and slush-- get really good entry mats, and a bench by the doors to sit on and put on boots/take them off. A boot dryer is an indulgence you'll bless yourselves for splurging on.

And it is beautiful there. Get acquainted with the locks, lock-watching can be fascinating.

Don't be afraid... you'll learn the toughness of the northerner is only skin-deep. They don't say much (and they say it too fast!) but they're there when you need them.

encouragingly,
Bright

[MelissaB]

14. Thanks so much for taking the time to post all this great information.

I'm excited and nervous at the same time. I'm sending this to my husband. He reads DU faithfully, but never posts. I hope he actually knows what a boot dryer is. He's from Long Island, so there is hope. :)

I think I'll make a list of all the great info in this thread and take it with me the next time we go up to look at houses.

[Longhorn]

15. I wish we could move up there with you!

My husband is a remodeling contractor so he could remodel the house and I teach math at community college so maybe I could teach it up there! ;)

I lived my first ten years in Battle Creek -- futher south but four beautiful seasons that I still remember. We get two seasons here -- warm and hot! :)

The house is beautiful but I understand your reluctance. I wish y'all the best, no matter what you choose! :hi:

[Kolesar]

16. How did they do insulation in those houses in that quite-cold climate 100 years ago?

I have a ninety year old house. Our Ohio winters consist of 10 to 30 degree weather for several months. The builder addressed this by putting no insulation in the house. I did all the work myself.

One account I read said that "there was no good insulation material back then". People might put crumpled newspaper or cork boards in the walls, but most of these vintage homes got by with no insulation until the energy crises of the 1970s when fuel oil shot up in price. Then the homeowners did something, like insulating the attic. Before that, they must have just endured a chilly house unless they wanted to spend big money for energy.

I could not imagine somebody enduring that in a climate where the temperature would hover below zero for days on end. Was there some other insulation that I don't know about?

[TygrBright]

17. Just airspace and solid construction. Air is a functional insulator.

They'd do very solid construction of the outer wall, leave a good airspace, then solid construction of the inner wall. Plus a lot of "passive" things-- like basements, attics, orienting the house so that it was sheltered from the worst of the winter winds, not putting windows on the north side, etc. And plenty of radiators. Also, snow itself is quite a good insulator, when it's piled 3-4 feet deep around the foundation of the house!

I remember from my childhood, those radiators would POUR out heat. We were HOT inside, even without insulation. Of course, it was dry as allgetout, too. We had these tin tanks that would hang on the radiator between the radiator and the wall. My job was to keep them filled with water so that the air didn't dry out too much. Heating fuel (coal and gas) was a lot cheaper then, too. Those big, inefficient old furnaces burned through a lot. My grandparents had an old coal furnace until I was about six or seven. It was fun for us to slide into the coal chute and come down on top of the pile of coal. We'd get whacked for coming up from the basement black as sweeps. During the winter they got a coal delivery about twice a week. It was a big deal when they got a gas furnace, like we had.

reminiscently,
Bright

[Longhorn]

18. I remember putting pot pie tins filled with water inside the floor registers

when I was growing up in Indiana and Michigan. Quite a bit different from Central Texas! :)

[Kolesar]

20. Plaster and lath walls have a bit of insulation.

Some houses are designed to use the snowpack on the roof as insulation. But I think the low price of energy back when America had 120 million people was the "real story" of these homes.

[Whoa_Nelly]

21. Since you like that style of home, take a look at this site

http://www.historicproperties.com/search.asp

The searches are done by US region. Michigan is North Central.

You may find something that doesn't need so much work. :hi:

[MelissaB]

22. I'm in negotiations now with one of these beauties. I just happened to stumble across

this site. It was linked from Old House Journal, I think.

Isn't she beautiful?

http://www.historicproperties.com/detail.asp?detail_key=ncsau002

The daughter of the homeowner sent me lots of photos yesterday, and I think I'm in love. Now I have to make a trip up to see her in person.

Thanks so much for the link. I really appreciate it because I found it by luck/fate/whatever.

By the way, this house is only one street over from the other one I looked at that needs a lot of work.

[Whoa_Nelly]

23. Perfect!

:woohoo:

[Longhorn]

24. Wow, that's gorgeous!

Good luck! :hi:

[MelissaB]

25. I'll keep you posted.

I'm pretty excited! :hi:

[eleny]

27. I think there's a brick beauty for sale across the street from this latest one

If I'm not mistaken.

I was checking out realtor.com for the zip code of your original house. And a brick one showed up. I figured brick is sturdy and was going to mention it but hesitated.

Anyhow, I checked out the brick house on Google Earth, too, and it may be right across the street kitty-cornered from this one you're looking at now. That neighborhood must be picturesque with all these vintage homes.

It looks like you can get a lot of house for the money these days in Michigan. Good luck with everything!

[MelissaB]

28. We looked at the brick one on our last trip up.

It was really pretty, but needed a lot of work, too. I decided if I was going to do that much work I'd rather have the dream house that needed everything.

We also looked at another brick house on Spruce. It was nice, too, but only had one bathroom and no yard for the dogs. :( It's been vacant a while, so somebody could get a great deal.

This city really needs a bed and breakfast in one of these old beauties. There is not a single one here. If anyone is looking to relocate this is a great opportunity. Like you said, you can get a lot of house for your $$.

[eleny]

30. It's been fun following this thread

And thanks for letting me know about that brick home. Its nice to hear the real scoop!

[MelissaB]

31. Is this the brick? If so, it's just across the street.

And here's the one we're looking at:




Oops! Replied to the wrong post. :(

[MelissaB]

32. Okay, I'm excited. Here's a few more from the inside.

This is a house across the street know as the "castle house".

[eleny]

34. They appreicated and kept thier exposed woodwork

And pocket doors! My, my, I can see why you're excited about viewing this one in person. The street looks cozy to me.

[MelissaB]

36. Well, a couple more. :)

Dining room built in:




Fireplace in bedroom:

[eleny]

37. It gets better and better

[eleny]

33. Yes, that's the brick one

I recognize the archway on the third floor.

But can you just die! The house you're looking at is so pretty. I like the stone foundation. The porch swinging around the side is lovely.

[MelissaB]

35. She is a beauty, but I have no idea how much it will cost to paint her. The brick houses are

very appealing for that reason. I also need to get a contractor in there to really check things out.

[NMDemDist2]

26. ok! now you're talking!

that's a beauty!

[MelissaB]

29. Thank ya, Ma'am!

:hi:

I do still love the first house, though. It just took my breath when I walked in. Umm...that's with it's beauty, not it's need of work.