well, i am firing my architect.

[mopinko]

as you can see from this post i have no one to blame but myself. all this time later, still no plans, much bullshit, and being jacked up for more money for the second time. (the first stick up was in the middle of my herniated disc ordeal, i was insane with pain, and DH was exhausted. just snuck right up on us.)
i really think that although he can still draw things up and all, he can't really do the part about finding out what it is that i want. or maybe it is his memory going. things that we have talked about that were HIS ideas never ended up on paper.
i don't know if it is even worth the grief to try to get any money back out of him. he doesn't have it. i supposed he has some insurance, but.....
he is doing one last version, although he has said it will not be a full presentation. i am thinking a letter from my lawyer might at least get something that i can get moving through the permit process.
but, grrrrr. this is what i get for listening to my heart. the usual.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

1. Most builders

and I am talking about builders, can draw up designs. A good builder has seen and built a little bit of everything. Architects don,t really hear what you say about your ideas.But a good builder might see what you are saying.The builder can add to what you don,t see of your ideas threw experience.When a builder see's a good design ,the only thing left to do is recreate it ,than improve upon it.Every builder crafts themselves into their work. Threw the craft is where the design is either improved or perfected. Most any good builder will agree that most not all architects are way,way over rated, self indulged ,on and so on. After the smoke clears ,consult a builder.

A good builder will understand your pain in the ass with that architect. In view of that your consultation may even be painless! Good Luck with that.

[Stinky The Clown]

2. That's kinda broad brush ...........

.... architects are people first.

Some listen. Some don't. You have to find a match.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

3. That's like saying find another one and keep shelling out the money.

say it's a addition on to the house. I have a mere twenty years at it. In those years I have been involved in maybe forty additions done 12 myself.
It seems clear there is bilking going on. Rather like lawyers that double dip.They say they are working on it, the billing hours keep stacking with no results.They become people first with deep pockets. Yours become empty.

Builders like to go off and turn their hands at custom built homes. Some become very successful . The builder draws up the design threw experience and than creates the design with hands on every step of the way.That's the beauty of building.Reading and interpreting architect's designs turns into drawing up your own. Experience counts for a great deal more.

The bottom line is the victim in this case my be incurring a unnecessary expense right from the start. The builder also gets the permits and stands to inspections by the inspectors! By the way,a good builder will also be quick to point out architectural design flaws!That comes with experience and ah, schooling!

[mopinko]

4. i assumed that i could take this "last draft" to a good builder, and get it done.

the thing with relying on the builder is that most will draw up what they are comfortable with, and it was my intent to push the envelope in several directions. i was also counting on this guy to give me some state of the art energy advise, and got absolutely none of that.
he was also hoping to get the construction management. i was never giving that real serious consideration. but he surely did screw himself on that.
i honestly think that he is honest, but just getting to old, and not really in control any more. i am more sad than mad. i was hoping for a great collaboration. i got a tug of war, instead.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

5. Your electric company

will give you free advice on energy saving measures in line with remodle or additions.The building industry is all about pushing envelops! Energy saving concepts are all about keeping up with new products ,insulation,windows ,siding, doors, heating, electrical use in general ,on so on. You explained my suspicion of doubble dipping.Most builders study drafting . The draftsman puts the architect's disign drawing into blue prints. The builder goes by those prints and enters corrections on the job ,building code stuff ,sometimes the architect's survay is off,oh on and so on. Builders and architects do indeed argue.I am not going to go into the parts about experience vs. so called brain wizzard.On a project some time back a law firm, the lawers fired the architect because the architect just couldn,t measure up.Soon after it was realized by the firm that any architect is a waste of money on this particular job. The disign was completed in house.If that tells you anything.If that had not happened the firm will have stayed in a high rise downtown building for one more mounth at a cost of a excess of thirty grand.It can be amazing what can be accomplished when people put their heads togather on a problem.The total amount of money that was saved by the law firm is a number that is still being talked about three years later.And their expectations were exceeded by far.Which means they spent less and got more.

[mopinko]

6. you can't really build here without a permit, and you need a stamp for that.

back in the day, city hall didn't like to hassle people for taking care of the housing stock. now they are nicer to homeowners walking a plan through the process, but they still gotta see that stamp. and they will shut you down. besides, i am active in my local party, and the neighborhood nut bloggers would be all over me if i tried to skirt the rules.
i know most of the real energy decisions are made when you are buying your materials. and most of the passive solar parts of the design are pretty simple math. so, i will be fine, i am sure.
i was just really looking for something completely different, and something with bold style. imho, you don't get that from a draftsman. a good architect would have been worth the money. and maybe this guy used to be. but he isn't any more. he needs to retire.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

7. I see wat you are saying-solar.

I am not sure about the stamp thing. But what I do know about is obtaining permits.When the builder builds custom made homes those designs are their builders own. The builder says he or she is just a builder. Design is just another way of expressing knowledge which is education threw experience and hard work. Essentially there is no way around the time and expense of education.Builders must deal with inspection and obtaining permits ,it's part of the job or project. The stamp comes with being a licensed building contractor.

All the architect would do is get the builder or sub contractors to work for him without questions. I think the architect's problem was trying to maintain total control. No builder or sub contractor will want to fall into the position of being the fall guy for a architect. Or worse yet a architect teamed up with a couple of lawyers in a business venture.

The object was to show you different options. Good luck with your project.

[mopinko]

8. the stamp is an architect's license

most big builders would have someone who could draw and stamp plans, but in chicago, you have to have the stamp of a licensed architect.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

10. I don't no

seems politically controlled.You can buy a set of architect's drawings complete with blue prints ,hell you can buy that at home depot.I was a contract framer back in western N.Y. back in time and the politics there surrounding the building industry sucks and it seems as bad or worse than that in Chicago.The best of luck!

[Stinky The Clown]

9. His plans are 'intellectual property"

He would be within his rights to sue you. He may not be that smart, but he would be within his rights. Most commercial architects wouldn't bother, but too many residential architects have been burned this way and are (rightly so) quite aggressive.

[mopinko]

11. burned how? he got paid.

in fact, he got paid twice, after signing a contract to give me plans that would get a permit, and producing no such thing. he came back saying that it would cost us almost twice the original estimates, even though we didn't even have a draft plan. he pulled that out of his ass. i wasn't asking for anything that was not discussed in the original interview.
and they are as much my ideas as his. not that i think he is just a draftsman, but i brought him some pretty concrete ideas. he hasn't really added much.
i understand about the intellectual property thing, but he hasn't lived up to his end of the contract, has proposed ideas that were specifically ruled out in the first place, and has taken up nearly a year with his bs.
well, we will see what happens. he has a draft for me to look at. i will post what happens.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. I'm not arguing and in fact side with you on this ...... but .......

..... who owns the drawings? You or him? If this wasn't specifically discussed, the answer is: He Owns Them. They're covered by copyright law and unless you can show you hold that copyright, you may not even be able to get them printed. The default copyright goes to the person who produced them (him), not who commissioned them (you).

Just for the heck of it, if you have a set, see if your local Kinkos (assuming they have the ability to copy large format sheets) will make copies. If the clerk taking your order is on the ball and following Kinkos' own policies, you'll be asked to provide a letter from the architect granting you permission to have the drawings copied.

My original comment in this thread was in response to you suggesting you might take his plans to a builder and have the builder draw them up in way that can actually be built. Without siding with the architect, I was merely saying he could have grounds to sue you for doing that. I hope it didn't get construed as me saying it was right. I was simply saying it was possible.

[mopinko]

13. as someone usually on the other side of that table

i get it. but we are assuming, at this point, that we will be dissolving the contract. i have no intention of letting him off the hook without the rights to what has been done so far. if nothing else it will save me the cost of repeating measurement of existing structures, etc. which are not intellectual property under any understanding of the concept that i know.
he has reluctantly given me the cads. although i don't really know the format, i did slog through it to the point that i could get my ideas through his head.
he wants to see it built. even if he doesn't have anything to do with it. but the whole thing has been quite the stroke. grrrrr.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

14. The stamp thing,I don,t know ,But bilking

is what the guy is all about from what it says.Sitting on it for a year plus? Came back to you double the original , ok so he charges you for his time across your ideas. He makes a few phone calls and looks a few things up. If he gets his money ,he has a student draw it up in figures ,to be used toward a grade with his stamp on it=s good to go for the grade, the old wimp.What,s his credentials say?

[mopinko]

15. ya know, honestly,

he has worked on it. he didn't hand it off. but he did try to feed me fully drawn plans full of things that i specifically told him i did not want. and without things that i told him were important.
ie- the first thing i told him- i want a dramatic stair. it is 3 stories, and i wanted an unusual and beautiful stair. i even gave him some sketches of what i had in mind. each iteration had a plain, boring, simple stair. till the last, which had a circular stair, which i had repeatedly said no to.
shit like that, that deserved a sketch got a full, 3 story drawing. then he wants me to pay extra for the time he wasted. he finally throws up his hands and says 'i don't know what you want' duh. clearly. but isn't that your job?
honestly. i have tried hard. i thought that he had a good idea, because we both love a crazy house.
i did a little mac site about this house. it still needs some polish, but you can look at these pictures, and see what i mean. http://web.mac.com/mo_clay/iWeb/ruthfordhouse/welcome.html

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

16. My Goodness!!!!!!!!!

Am I seeing a geodesic design or what? I just don't recall the name of the genus who launched it back in the sixties. He proved that round has more usable space than square!

You can't bring in a clown ,excuse my wording in that, into that design. It requires nothing less than stark raving brilliance. Have you visited the university school of art and architecture with those slides and your concepts or conceptual drawings? Indeed you must get yourself and those pictures and conceptual drawings to a meeting with the minds!!!!!!

And do not delay!
The architect will refuse your concepts in his or her design capacity almost automatically. The problem began at the beginning.To the architect only the architect can know what is right by design ,never the consumer. It all went south from the beginning.

And what ever you do or don't do, do not remove those slides!

[mopinko]

17. not based on bucky fuller. this house was built in 1948

this architect was a protege of the guy who designed that house. that is why i hired him. that is why it was worth it to me to take a flyer on an old guy that i really had my doubts about. (he is in a couple of the pictures. he is the one in the indiana jones hat standing on the "platform".

don't get the wrong idea. i don't want to build a house just like that one, but i did want someone who could make that kind of a leap.

i must add, tho, that this house is very efficient living space. sucks energy pretty bad. but is something to see.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. The geodesic dome was Bucky Fuller

R. Buckminster Fuller. College drop-out extraordinaire. A true Renaissance man. Google up "Dymaxion"

Fuller was an out and out genius. So far ahead of his time, we're still reaching for what he proved possible.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

19. Could not recall his name!

Well,now it is understood just why it is the guy thinks he has you over a barrel. Clearly to his thinking he is the only game in town.Visit the university school of architecture,after you talk to some students and Grad students and whom ever else they may recommend ,than have a conference with your first selective choice ,or just can him out completely.By can him out, that means put the seal on the lid tight and toss the trash.

Clearly he has neither the will or desire to further the design along.

A good student will look at your concepts and if there is a response ,that is right where design ideas fly.Does one who is set in their ways remind of the complications you have been experiencing? It's not about being to old for change ,it's more like to far set in the ways to bother looking any further.

Show that man and yourself that you are not at a dead end by any means!

[mopinko]

20. well, i have shown him that i will not settle for anything less than what i want

why would i re-mortgage a nearly paid for house, and spend a rather large buck for this guy, to have a plain vanilla box, which is pretty much where we are?
not so worried about finding another as not wanting to see that dough go down the drain. but, better than to throw good money after bad. and your idea was pretty much what i was thinking, as the current owner of the house teaches architecture at a university here in the city. he was gonna be my first call.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

21. Do let us know how things go

I am sure that you will find the right professional or up coming professional to help you tailor your views into just what you want and more than that.

The beauty of more than that is how it comes about.

And those banks,sure all you got to do is go down there to the bank ,it's simple really.I wonder if the guy is really feeling that lucky!

To you,the best of luck and keep pressing on.
Looking forward to a progress report.

[mopinko]

22. already talked to the money guys

they say- how much do you want? we have a big chunk just on signature. we figured we would actually remort when we really get moving. but we owe about 1 /10th what it is worth as it sits.

i'll also let you know when i get a chance to add to that mac site. there seems to be more out there on the google since the last time i looked.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

23. That's what we call good to go!

Will be watching!They will say how much do you want, how much will it take is where you are now. The guy you de hooked from was pondering the bank response all along ,figuring you would go for the max on your ideas at the same time planning to dump his ideas on you. Oh and for quite a tidy sum.

Project planning is all about getting the most out of your money. And vultures lurk, and more often than not,right at the beginning. Vultures want as much out of you as they can get by any and all means.

He wanted you to help him find his way to a comfortable retirement.
And those are the kinds of numbers vultures just love to wheel and deal around.

He thought and was sure that he could present his designs to you in such a way ,that you would be made to believe that nothing less or short of his crap would do. You would say, I simply must have it,at all cost!

When their ideas stop flowing ,wheeling and dealing is about all there is left for them.Bait them,hook them,than play them.

Use that experience to your advantage to spot them, they are the enemy, vultures.

People in the building industry in your city have ways of describing them that is more so concrete in description. Or back behind the barn ,as the saying goes! When you have worked years to prefect your trade or craft ,work finds you. You charge what you are worth,no more and no less.

That stamp ,your bank ,your desire, blocked numbers=easy money-bilk bilk.
double dip triple dip,on and so on. They just get use to it ,it's just too easy to pass up.They tie togather. One knows another and so on.