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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 05:05 PM
Original message
Is there an electrician in the house?
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 05:37 PM by NNN0LHI
I need to know if I were to "properly" hook up this battery:

http://www.amazon.com/MK-Cycle-Battery-Backup-Pumps/dp/tech-data/B000GKC8AE/ref=de_a_smtd/190-1051431-4038567

MK Deep Cycle Gel Cell 12 Volt Battery for Backup Sump Pumps

Product Features and Technical Details
Product Features
Maintenance free design
Durable Polypropylene case
Self-sealing vent system prevents loss of internal fluids
Shipable via UPS; Rated non-spillable
3 Year manufacturers warranty
Technical Details
Lead calcium plates
Dual use terminals
86.4 - 99.5 Amp Hour Rating

To this DC-to-AC Inverter/Charger:

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=314&EID=14617&txtModelID=2939

APS1250 serves as an automotive or stationary DC-to-AC inverter with automatic line-to-battery transfer and integrated battery charger
Supports 120V AC output from a 120V AC line power source or 12V DC battery source
16.6 millisecond automatic transfer between line and battery power supports UPS protection during blackouts and voltage fluctuations for equipment compatible with a one cycle transfer time
1250 watts continuous AC output in inverter mode, 1440 watts continuous AC output in AC mode
Double Boost™ inverter output supports momentary startup loads up to 200% of the continuous rating for up to 10 seconds
OverPower™ inverter output supports longer duration overloads to 150% for 1-60 minutes under ideal battery and temperature conditions (For best results, utilize OverPower usage for as short of a duration as possible, ensure battery bank and cabling is able to provide full nominal DC voltage under load and allow inverter/charger to fully cool before and after OverPower usage).
3 stage, 30 amp battery charger with adjustable settings for wet/gel battery types offers fast, reliable battery recharging

OVERVIEW
Intended Application Emergency Home Power
SYSTEM OVERVIEW
Voltage compatibility 12V DC / 120V AC
OUTPUT
Frequency compatibility 60 Hz
Output watts 1250W (continuous) / 2500W (peak)
Continuous output capacity (watts) 1250
Peak output capacity (watts) 2500
Output nominal voltage 120V
Output voltage regulation LINE POWER (AC): Maintains 120V nominal sine wave output from line power source. INVERTER POWER (AC): Maintains PWM sine wave output voltage of 120 V AC (+/-5%).
Output frequency regulation 60 Hz (+/- 0.3 Hz)
Overload protection Includes 8A input breaker dedicated to the charging system and 12A output breaker for AC output loads
Outlet quantity / type 2 AC outlets


To operate this AC sump pump during short power outages:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/67098/Zoeller_M98_Sump_Pump

Item Submersible Sump Pump
TypeResidential HP1/2
Switch TypeVertical
Voltage115
Amps9.4
Cord Length (Ft.)15
On Point (In.)9 1/2
Off Point (In.)3 GPM of Water @ 10 Ft. of Head61
GPM of Water @ 20 Ft. of Head25 Max. Head (Ft.)23 Height (In.)12 Dia. (In.)10 1/8 Max. Dia. Solids (In.)1/2 Max. Temp. (F)130 Base MaterialCast Iron HousingCast Iron Top MaterialCast Iron Impeller MaterialPolypropylene RPM1725 Thermal ProtectionYes Shaft SealCarbon/Ceramic Discharge NPT (In.)1 1/2 GPM of Water @ 15 Ft. of Head45 GPM of Water @ 5 Ft. of Head72 Weight38.00

First will it work? Second if it will work about how long would the battery last in this application?

Thanks in advance if anyone know the answers.

Don


If it helps I called Zoeller and they told me when the pump first starts it requires about an 1800 Watt initial surge and then uses about 1080 Watts to run normally after that so I think I am OK there?
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why don't you just invest
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 05:47 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
in a gas fuled generator and have a power back up for your intire house?
Those generators can put out both 110v and 220v. cost between $800.00 and $1,200.00.

As to how long the battery would last will depend on how often the pump kicks on and off.


Simply put if you left your lights on in your car,given your car doesn't have a auto shut off ,how long would your battery put out juice without the motar running ? It's just a battery.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I am not looking for a solution that lasts a long time with this system
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 08:29 PM by NNN0LHI
I have a gasoline generator with a switch box for my six essential circuits including the sump pump for extended outages. But it is not automatic I need to be home first of all. Then I have to drag it out of the garage and hook it up to the switch box. Then I need to go out to the shed to get gas to put into the generator because I won't keep gas in the generators gas tank because I heat my attached garage with a vent-less heater with an open flame for a pilot. If it wasn't attached to the house it wouldn't be so bad. But I don't want any tragedies.

Then usually after going through all that the power comes back on about ten minutes later. Most of the power outages here last a few hours or so.

So I am looking for a temporary fix here. A stop gap measure. Something to get me through the night if possible without my crawlspace flooding. Then in the morning if the power is still out I will get the gas generator going.

I have checked into the automatic generators but I can't afford one.

So I need a cheaper way for some peace of mind.

I was of looking for the total numbers of minutes or hours this pump would run continuously on battery power? I can take the cycle rate and divide that into that number. But I do know it comes on for 4 or 5 seconds about every ten minutes when I get the heaviest of rains.

Don
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. If the battery had 94 Amp*hours, and the load was 9.4 Amps, it would last 10 hours
If there were no "conversion losses". I am sure that the inverter is at least 50% efficient, so you would have at least five hours at that efficiency.

Our house's sump pump does not run continuously when it is raining. If your pump ran 50/50, the battery could run it for 10 hours.

The power required by the pump is 9.4A x 120V => 1128 Watts. Your 1250 Watt inverter has enough power.

Good luck - blurb blurb blurb
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well I think that is amazing
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 09:14 PM by NNN0LHI
That is all I should ever need here. My pump usually cycles on about every five minutes for 4 or 5 seconds during the heaviest rains I have experienced here. So this thing could keep my crawl dry for days at that rate.

The Inefficiency rating for the inverter is 1.2 according to the owners manual.

Here is an equation the manual gives to estimate the battery amp-hours required:

45 DC Amps X 5 Hrs. Run time X 1.2 Inefficiency Rating = 270 Amp-Hours

Thank you for the information.

This will save me some sleepless nights.

Don
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think your initial surge is what's going to be the problem.
The pump will come on intermittently and require that surge every time it comes on, right? And the battery has no way to recharge between cycles. And every time it comes on, the inverter has to come on as well and has it's own energy drain on the battery.

I think it would work but for how long or how many cycles is the question.

I am not an electrician, but I live off of battery power and an inverter system for anything not 12 volt.

Good luck.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. One last thought. 12 volt pumps are widely available. Why not just run straight
off the battery and skip the inverter?
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The 12 Volt pumps all look made cheap to me
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 09:50 PM by NNN0LHI
Usually low GPM too.

I am kind of sold on the Zoeller M98 Sump Pump. Great design. Last forever. Built like a tank. Half a HP. No drawbacks really.

That is my reasoning.

Don
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Have you looked at marine pumps?
We have an on-demand pump in our bilge connected directly to our battery system. It is very reliable. Many a boat has been saved by these pumps.

I don't know much about the the other specs you are looking at, I just hate to put another piece of electrical equipment in a system where it's not needed. Just one more thing that can fail, in my experience.

And you need to factor in the energy needs of the inverter when you figure out how long it will work, which will require the services of poster above.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Bilge and flooded basements are two different animals
I'd go for the hefty sump pump, the backup battery, and an inverter. Shoot, I'd go for the pump and a generator in case the power conks out because of whatever is causing the flooding. Batteries often have too short a useful life to get the water out of that basement if something drastic is happening.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm curious as to how bilges and basements are different.
You got water, it needs to go.

:shrug:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Sheer quantity of water.
Unless you've got a big hole in your bottom, you're not going to see the type of flooding that a big storm can cause in a basement.

The best fix is the permanent one, to figure out where the flooding is coming from and correct it. Since that's not always possible, you do need the hefty pump.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I am seeing a lot of pumps at the westmarine site that have GPM ratings significantly
higher than what he is looking at - some over 100 gals minute.

The question here seems to be what powers the pump, not anything else. A pump is a pump. My question is, why put an expensive, energy sapping piece of electronic equipment between the source of the power and what it needs to power?

The advantage to a marine system is that it is a 12 volt system. Or maybe I am missing something here.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's exactly why I'd go with an AC system
and buy a backup generator if the area was prone to flooding.
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have read all the posts thoroughly - you will be disappointed . . .
.
.
.

With THREE batteries my 3amp (360Watt) freezer will run for 4 hours.

With ONE battery, my 150 watt halogen will run for 5 hours.

Remember - amp-hours degrade exponentially

Most inverters kick out somewhere around 11.5 volts . .

I use a 1/3 horse sump-pump on an inverter - less surge - and much less steady draw (I run it on a 400/300w inverter)

If nothing else,

get the 1/3 or even 1/4 horse (around 3amp) sump-pump. It will be adequate

Consider this - with TWO batteries - my 1200w inverter cannot even start my 1000watt microwave as the battery voltage drops below the 11.5 volt cut out on the surge cycle . .

Your battery(ies) are the weak link - storage is always the big problem.

3, better 4 batteries would be needed for reliability with your current listed pump

figure 3 to 4(max)amp draw per battery

works for me

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thank you very much for the info
Edited on Tue Nov-10-09 10:33 PM by NNN0LHI
As I mentioned above I am just looking for a temporary stop-gap measure here rather than long term reliability. I am trying to avoid having to get out of the bed during the middle of the night during a power failure to go outside and gas up and start my generator to keep the sump pump running during a power outage that will likely only last only a few hours.

If I can delay having to do that until morning I will be very happy with that. Most my power outages here last a few hours or less. I used to just let that corner of the crawl space where the sump pit is located fill up with water and wait until the power came back on and let the sump pump it out. Problem with that idea was my sump pump is not rated for continuous duty. So after letting the water accumulate for a few hours the power would return and then the sump pump would need to run continuously for maybe 10 or 15 minutes solid without turning off to go into a cool down to get all the accumulated water out. And in the process of doing that it would burn up the pump due to heat build up from running continuously with no time to cool down. And then I was really screwed.

I actually tried out this system today with a water hose in the sump pit and the system with the one battery and inverter/charger I laid out in my OP. Ran for about 8 hours at the cycle rate I need for the worst rains here. It needs to cycle for about 4 seconds every five minutes. So the actual amount of running time I need to stay dry is about 1 minute per hour during an outage. Thats not much is it? The battery appeared to still be in pretty good shape after the test today. I basically had a battery draw for about a total of about 8 minutes during that 8 hours. I think I am going to be alright. As I said I am just looking for a short term fix rather than an extended one with this system.

Total cost was about $750 US. I notice other companies are selling similar pre-packaged units (SumPro is one company I have seen advertised) for close to $2000 US. The wire I needed was damn expensive. The two pieces of 2/0 gauge X 4 feet long wire that go from the battery to the inverter were really expensive. About $60 US just for them. And I had to order them from Florida as no one around here had anything that big.

Thanks again.

Don
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-21-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. $60.00 for 8' of 2/0 wire?
You got hosed there.Should not have cost more than $25.00.Plus, awg#6 would have handled the load with plenty to spare.
How high of a lift does it require to get the water out of the basement?The 1250 watts is at full load or maxlift.If you are lower then the max lift the pump will not have to work as hard and will use less power.I recently discovered this on a pond circulation system I just installed. A 5 amp pump was only pulling 3 amps because it was only lifting about 2/5 of the max lift.Pleasant surprise for the homeowners power bill!
The 9.5 hours mentioned upthread sounds about right.I would,however,recommend a second battery.

Also,how are you charging?If you are using a standard charger that you plan on keeping connected full time make sure to use one that has an automatic shutoff when it hits full charge.Trickle chargers can overheat the battery which will kill its lifespan.Also,never run the pump for more than 2/3 of the amphour ratings.This will also protect the battery from overheating.With a 9.5 hour expected run time I would not let it run for more than 6 hours between full charges.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-22-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yea, I thought the wire was really overpriced too
Edited on Sun Nov-22-09 08:59 AM by NNN0LHI
But thats the only place I could find it after searching the Internet. No one around here I called had it. And 0/2 gauge wire is what Tripp Lite recommends in the owners manual for the link between the battery and inverter/charger.

My head is only about 5 feet so I don't think I am even using the full 900 watts the sump pump requires to operate. The sump pump makers 900 watt rating is for a 10 foot head. It was the starting surge that worried me. The pump requires about 1800 watts to start initially but the inverter will put out 2500 watts for a short period if needed. My pump cycle rate is really low too. I never have water gushing in. Just a small steady stream during heavy rain storms and periods of snow melting. My pump only needs to cycle for 4 seconds about every 5 or 10 minutes to keep things dry in the worst of times.

As for the charging end of it the inverter I linked to above has a built in 30 amp battery charger which automatically switches off in milliseconds in the event of a power failure. And then switches back on when the power returns.

This system has worked real well so far.

A company here in Illinois called SumPro sells a pre-packaged unit to do the same thing for over twice the money I spent to put this one together. They want about $1800 for theirs. Theirs is more heavy duty with 2 batteries but with a standby generator here I don't need anything that heavy duty.

I was looking for something just to get me through a few hours. Because that is the all the average power outages here last. If it is going to be a day or more I will need to get the generator going anyway to provide power for heat, fridge and lights. I was looking for a temporary fix here with this system. Just something to get me through a night if needed. And that probably covers 99% of the power outages I have here.

And thank you for your input.

Don
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-22-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Looks to me like you done good!
Edited on Sun Nov-22-09 02:48 PM by Wash. state Desk Jet
I thought about a back up battery ,that may be something down the line you might think about. On the cable, your only other option I could see was to take the specs. to a electrical supplier and have them match it up to the equivalent. So you may have saved a little money . An the other hand if it were me, I most likely would have gone through the manufacturer as well.

I took a look at the specs on your unit by your link and it all looks pretty impressive. -built in charger -, everything automatic.
Well thought out and researched on your part I would say.

I would imagine you feel pretty comfortable with your new set up! Again you done good!
If it makes any difference, I used to buy 12/2 with ground=, the copper ground wire to the ground bus bar at the box , electrical wire by the 250 ft. roll for about $55.00 ,but the cost has more than doubled since than. It seems outrageous,but that is what it cost now rather I agree with it or not!Standard electrical wiring is always in high demand. With your hook ups attached what you have there is a specialty item and it is of course going to cost more anyway.
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Wash. state Desk Jet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-22-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. One last note
Using anything other than the manufacturer recommended gauge wire could very well void the manufacturer guaranty. You might find something to that end in the warranty. Since you hooked it up yourself ,by fallowing the manufacturers specs., you covered yourself along the lines of your warranty.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-23-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. They even said the cables going to the terminal on the inverter had to be tightened ...
Edited on Mon Nov-23-09 04:45 PM by NNN0LHI
...with a torque wrench using 3.5 Newton-meters of torque to create an efficient connection and to prevent excessive heating at the connections. They said insufficient tightening of these terminals could void the warranty.

They were also darn serious about having the inverter grounded properly. They talk about an extreme hazard up to and including death if the thing is not grounded properly so that warning really caught my eye. This caused me some problems. I couldn't figure out how I was going to drive an 8 foot ground rod into the ground with only 4 feet of height in my crawlspace? It had me befuddled.

Luckily my copper water line that comes into my crawlspace from the main was near my sump pit so I was able to take advantage of that. Someone had already installed a plastic pipe coupling in line after my water meter so I grounded the inverter before the meter a few inches away from where it goes into the ground outside. That seems to be working well too.

Take care and thanks for the input.

Don
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
21. If anyone is curious about the answer to this I called Tripp-Lite and got the answer
They have an equation where they punch in the numbers you give them and they can give you an approximate run time.

They said this system would run steady for about one hour.

Which is plenty for my application. That would keep my crawl space dry for about 60 hours at my rate of operation. That is really good I think.

Don
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