Need an opinion on kitchen flooring. Want to weigh in?

[grace0418]

We've lived in our condo for 11 years and it's a great place but we need more space and plan to sell soon. The building itself is an old brick building from 1925. The interior was gutted and we were the first owners after the renovations. Some of the renovation was great, some was not. They left the original hardwood floors in place which seemed like a great thing at first. The problem is that the floors are too old and have been sanded and refinished too many times so they are very thin.

The worst areas are in the kitchen, where you can't walk around and talk to someone at the same time because they can't hear you over the squeaking. Some spots are so soft we deliberately avoid walking on them because we're afraid they'd going to bust through one of these days.

We had a few flooring guys come out and quote repairing the floor. It's pretty expensive, as you can imagine. It's not actually that much more to replace the entire kitchen floor. A few years ago we figured we'd just give a credit to have the floors repaired and be done with it. But now we feel like the floor needs to be addressed before we can put the place on the market.

So now we're thinking, if we need to replace the floor, do we:

a) replace with hardwood
b) replace with slate
c) replace with something cool like poured/stained concrete

It's a cool, very urban place in a cool, urban neighborhood. So we're not concerned about the options above being too edgy. Pergo, ceramic and linoleum tiles are not options. People who buy around here wouldn't like those choices. It's a very specific style of condo and it seems like the three options above are the best stylistically speaking.

With that in mind, what do you think would be the most cost effective? Any of these three would look great in our kitchen, so since we are selling the place I'd like to spend the least amount of money I can while still having it be beautiful and chic. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

1. I would be curious if your floor structure would even be suitable ...

... for a natural stone or poured concrete.

The reason I ask is I live in one of those old brick buildings in Chicago (Wrigley - maybe we are neighbors) and I doubt tile would be suitable in my unit's kitchen. That's not to say it CAN"T or ISN'T done but the risks of cracked tile and/or grout is substantial over time if "deflection" standards aren't met. Add to that the fact that developers like to move walls to open up floor-plans and not adequately brace ceiling/floor joists when they remodel these units. For instance: My living room floor bounces a little when my dog runs across the living room. My neighbor has a wall missing in her unit that is right where the support for my floor SHOULD be. The builder placed a half-assed header there but I'm sure they did a piss-poor job of securing it.

That said, I just installed some large natural stone tiles in my baths because I was fairly certain of the joist spans in that part of the building. Also, we were in a joint venture with my downstairs neighbor's bath remodel so we had access to the joists for sizing/inspection. Also, we were able to substantially "beef up" the sub-floor with extra plywood - an option for a small 4x8 room but probably not an option for a larger room.


I'm not familiar with the requirements for concrete but natural stone tile requires a deflection rating of 1/720th of the total span where as ceramic/porcelains only require half the rating at a 1/360th. I would assume concrete requirements would be as stringent. Obviously, wood isn't an issue.



Some further reading and explanation of deflection at John Bridge form which, by the way, is one of the best sources on the net for tile questions:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1845

Where you aware that not all floor structures are suitable for the installation of tile?

Unfortunately sometimes you have to "Just Say No" To Tile.

Your floors "deflection" under both dead and live load cannot exceed 1/360th of your span, and in the case of natural stones the limit is half of that at 1/720th.

Here is the "Deflecto" calculator from www.johnbridge.com if you want to TRY and determine your L rating. I say try because, like my condo, you will probably find it difficult to determine your actual joist spans and dimensions without access to the uncovered structure (from below).
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl

[grace0418]

5. Yeah, I think you're probably right.

We're in Lincoln Square, so we practically are neighbors! We're probably going to have to suck it up and get new wood floors. I was thinking, as others suggested, about bamboo but we're not going to change out the hallway or living room (all of which are connected) so I wonder if we shouldn't just stick with something similar to the oak we have.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

2. I would wonder if you checked out market

in your area along the lines of selling your condo. And I would wonder if you have talked to any realtors?
As a contractor I really can't imagine yer hard wood flooring being so thin that you would be afraid of falling through ! And there is sub flooring under that.

Recently we had a comparative market analysis done on a older house before 1925 actually. Now, I figured a new roof ,a new kitchen ,flooring in the kitchen ,new carpet throughout , a few windows ,paint inside out ,all that to get the place ready for market.

After the assessment the realtor suggested painting the outside of the house ,minor repair on the siding and a new roof ,thats all. Than they showed the value of it after those recommendations.

I said really ! OK so I'll paint it up pretty. And you can get more than one assessment.In the market analysis you will see what condo's in your area that are similar to yours recently sold for.

My choice of carpet is not going to satisfy the next owner.
My ideas about a kitchen will not increase the value of the house.
That means I would be spending money unnecessarily.

It threw me for a loop i'll tell ya. I made pretty good money over the years getting houses ready for market.
so I figured I knew all about it ! But I forgot, I made pretty good money over the years remodeling houses people bought !





So before you do it ,I would suggest you consult a realtor first. you may be better off passing that problem along.
I know you have been there 11 years and you really think the floor has had it.
You should be able to get a market analysis for free or very reasonably. Free because they want your business.
you want to sell and you want to buy, now for a realtor,thats the double deal !

I mean look if it increases the value thats fine, but why spend if you don't have to ? Look,you gave yourself three choice. Suppose a potential buyer wants those choices and your condo !
And than of course there is the condo association to deal with.which is why I hate condo's !

The bottom line is, we don;t have money to throw at the problem, and my guess is you don't either !

So look into it before you leap ! You know, my akin back all that !

[grace0418]

4. Thanks. Yeah a few years ago we were advised to just leave the floor as is and let

the new owner decide what to do with it. But unfortunately in this market we can't afford to have such a large problem area be looming for any potential buyer. We've been advised to get it fixed. Bleh.

And yeah, the flooring really is that poor in spots. We've had more than one hardwood floor specialist come out and look at it. They all said in these old Chicago homes the original hardwood floors have a lot of cachet, so they keep getting sanded down and refinished. But there are only so many times you can sand down a wood floor before you don't have much floor left, and I can only imagine how many times it's been done over the last 85 years. They said they see it all the time. The subfloor is also most likely subpar and needs repair as well. You can actually see the floor sink when someone walks across it, and the noise is incredibly loud.

Anyway, thanks for your advice. We've been trying to be very judicious about what projects to take on and what is really going to either help us sell fast or increase our value. I was hoping the floor could be one of the projects left for the next owner, but I don't think that's going to be the case.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

8. Reminds me of being back in Buffalo N.Y. !

I think Bin sober is on to something. And I think if you look around you may be able to locate flooring guy to do a full scale repair and patch. There are ways and it involves the craft. He is spot on about the tongue and groove-,that is just what happens.


Stinky the clown has some good ideas too,I like the new pre finished stuff out on market. But yer mixing old with new.

The art of working on older buildings is the ability to tie it all together. Flashy new looking might not work.
Of course that would be different if you ran it throughout the unite.Or if the unite were carpeted ,than new flooring in the kitchen would seem perfect.

But all that would destroy the old fashion wood work,wouldn't it ? To repair it the floor has to be opened somewhat and in a condo there are considerable liabilities involved on the contractors end. Whereas in a house you just whip out your saws and have at it !

Seriously good luck with your project and I hope you pull through it in budget.
Look around for a flooring repair guy.A specialist.
Get bids of course, but you will know him when you see him !

[Warpy]

10. Excellent advice about the realtor

He'd be able to tell the OP what people are looking for.

As for the subflooring, once they pull up the thin floor boards, they can address the squeaking by throwing some more screws into the joists. However, I have seen some really cheapo renos where flooring was laid on top of joists--yike!

As for the choice in flooring, there is ceramic tile that is made to look very much like slate for a lot less cost. Polished cement wouldn't be terribly practical unless the place is on a slab and if it were on a slab, chances are the floor wouldn't squeak.

Since the OP is contemplating replacing the hardwood, I'd suggest they look into both cork and bamboo as slightly more reasonable alternatives.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. I agree with both previous posters. But if you want to consider floor options, here's two more

Bamboo, which comes in several constructs: Planks like hardwood, click together floating floor, and prefinished engineered floor.

The second choice also comes in these flavors, and that's cork. Cork also comes in another flavor that may well suit your situation, and that's roll cork. Put down underlayment to smooth out the existing floor and then install the cork on top of that. Depending how the cork is made, it can take on a myriad of looks and patterns. I'd suggest you google it up and check into it.

Both these choices are renewable and more or less green (depending on the source and the way it is manufactured or finished.

[grace0418]

6. Cork or bamboo would be cool.

Although I wonder if it will look weird if the hallway leading right into the kitchen is oak and the kitchen is bamboo. Maybe cork would be different enough.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

7. My place has original Oak Floors in the front and original Maple in the kitchen.

So I don't think mixing is a problem. Maybe I'm biased.

Back in the day, Maple was used in kitchens for its moisture resistance. It has tighter grain so its less likely to swell when wet. You will see a lot of Chicago places with mixed wood. Maple in the kitchen and oak everywhere else.

As a matter of fact, there was maple in the front bedroom before I bought the place. The old maple floor in my front bedroom closet was the first hint there was a kitchen in the front bedroom of the unit at one time. That, and the old pipes I had to cut out to move a door where I needed it. The front bedroom has the only newer oak floor in my place installed by the developer circa 1995. They apparently removed the maple in the bedroom so it would match the rest of the living space but left the maple in the closet out of laziness or cost. My mom pointed out a lot of these old units were divided up during the depression so there was more than one kitchen. I'm in a 6 flat with the typical "Chicago shotgun" floor plan.

I'm about due for a refinish as it's been almost ten years for me. A lot of renovations have scuffed up my floor. I wish I could find the number for the old timer who did my floor 10 years ago. It was an outfit called Victor Hardwood but the number listed is disconnected. I had moved some walls prior to the refinish so I needed patching done to the floor along with the other normal repairs of a 100 year old floor being refinished. Victor brought out some old growth planks from his tear out jobs and finger-laced them in. You can barely see the patch unless I point it out. In contrast, I have another patch from when the developer put the place together in 1995 and that patch sticks out like a sore thumb (I should have had Victor re-patch it). Newer red oak will never match that old stuff. Fortunately my "sore thumb" patch is in a corner next to the fireplace under a sub-woofer.

That said,

I'm finding it a little hard to imagine you can't refinish and repair what you have. IF you find the right people you can make it happen. Maybe check Angie's list and interview a few people if they are capable of repairing using old planks from tear-outs. The re-finisher might bitch and moan the job won't come out perfect but none of these 100 year old floors are "perfect". That's part of the character of these places. Funny story: Our condo association decided we wanted to pull up the carpet in our front hall and refinish the old floors. Well, they turned out to be painted and in "terrible" shape. The hardwood guy tried to talk me in to carpet because the floors were painted with several thick layers and full of old rusted carpet tacks and nails that left a tiny black spot were every nail/tack was. After arguing with the guy he finally saw it my way and refinished the floors. They came out beautifully. The little nail spots add a character you would have to pay extra for when buying new. Everybody in the building LOVES the hallway floor/stairs. The hardwood guy thinks the foyer portion we had to replace with new (due to water damage from an old radiator) is his best work the but everyone else likes the old patina'd floor up the stairs and on the landings. Go figure.


The plank floors in these old places are built up on 1 1/2 inch "sleepers" leaving an airspace between the hardwood and the 3/4 inch plank sub-floor (under the plank sub-floor are the joists). Most likely you will find: Joists and then 3/4 plank run perpendicular and then tar paper and then "sleepers" run parallel and on top of the joists. It's a really solid system absent any serious water damage. That's not to mention squeaks - which is the nature of the beast. Like Elwood told Joliet Jake: "so often you won't even notice it". Elwood was referring to the El train but it's the same concept.

The "sponginess" in your floor is likely from cracked tongue and groove pieces. The planks will need to be cut out and replaced. New "sleepers" will be replaced under the boards where needed. Your sub-floor, unless you had water damage, is probably ok. When the tongues crack it leaves the plank un-supported where there are no sleepers. Also, the floor plank ends usually do not rest on the sleepers so they rely on a sort of "net" effect to remain solid.

Repairing these "soft spots" is just normal maintenance at refinishing time and not necessarily reason to do a complete tear-out. I have a busted board in my living room from me dropping a chunk of drywall off a ten foot ladder. The drywall landed right on an unsupported end and popped the board loose. Maybe I'll hide my jewels under it.

I think with some repairs to the soft spots and three coats of a nice finish, your floors could stand real tall. Also, a dark stain does wonders on an old floor and hides imperfections.

I should note matching hardwood with old planks is less crucial if you are using a darker stain. When I refinished years ago I took the floors from a medium dark stain to a natural finish. That's why matching was more crucial AND the developer's half-assed patch stuck out.

[Warpy]

13. While continuity of flooring will help an open floor plan in a

small space look bigger, wood isn't all that appropriate in a kitchen. I know, I've been there. Probably my least favorite flooring in a kitchen was indoor-outdoor carpeting (a rental, ugh), but I found the only way to deal with wood floors in a kitchen was to keep them buried under throw rugs to catch drops and spills before they could damage the floor. The wood was still damaged beyond belief within 5 years.

Wood floors in a kitchen are appropriate if you don't cook.

[hippywife]

14. If I'm remembering correctly

cork is not an environmentally sustainable material, whereas bamboo is. Check me on that but I think cork is in short supply.

My best friend used to live in one of the brownstones down the street from Wrigley Field. I love that area and her place was really great.

Good luck. :hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Cork is eminently sustainable

It is the bark of an oak tree. The tree naturally sheds and regrows its bark. Even though it naturally sheds the bark, it can also be harvested. Cork is a "green" material according to GBC.

http://www.measureformeasurehome.com/CorkFlooringLEED.html

[hippywife]

16. I just did a search and found

that there was news circulating about a cork shortage but some reject it as started by the manufacturers of synthetic bottle stoppers, others say that the global demand for cork is close to exceeding the supply, and still others talk about a bacterial contamination that effects the wine when some low quality cork is used.

Not sure what the truth of the matter is. :shrug:

[Paper Roses]

9. I guess I must be lucky. My house is 200 years old.

Same 200 year old floors everywhere. We bought this old place in 1969 and had to do a rebuild from top to bottom. The floors all needed refinishing and we rented the awful machines to do the job. The machines today are far better. Redid them about 10 years ago with new machines(once the kids left for college.) We used a home grade belt sander, we also used a palm sander. Came out great. Sometimes I think those big machines do too much. You are only trying to rejuvenate the surface, not tear up the floor.

If your floors squeak, try nailing them down on the diagonal. By that I mean, not straight in but on an angle. It is harder for then to work loose that way. You could even use long, thin screws. Harder to do but will remain tight longer. Make sure they go into the sub-floor. For such a short period of time, it is hard to believe the wood is too thin to rejuvenate. Maybe the boards are not properly secured to the sub-flooring.

I'd give nailing a try and then use WsDJ's best suggestion. Minwax floor reviver. Best stuff ever.!!
Great shine,-- use low luster, nice shine without sparkle brightness.

[grace0418]

11. Well, our place has changed hands many times over the years and every time it

gets fixed up somebody comes through and sands down the floors. There is a board he could sorta pull up and show me and it's painfully thin. Previous owners didn't care about the long-term, they just wanted them to look good. They probably took off way more than they need to take off with each refinish. Both floor guys I had out (both highly recommended on Angie's List) say they see it all the time in old Chicago buildings like ours.

The squeaking is way beyond what we could fix with a few screws, it needs to be professionally repaired. We're just trying to figure the repair/replace question.

[murphymom]

12. I would advise against hard surfaces

They're harder on the feet than a wood or vinyl floor, plus anything you drop will be history. My husband has an old friend with a daughter who has Down Syndrome and the dropping things onto a tile floor was a major problem.

[Dover]

17. A few more ideas

Some terrific advice offered here, but just to continue brainstorming on options, here are a few things that occurred to me.
There are tiles that look like wood. And there are some beautiful sleak-looking options in rubber flooring which is also very practical for leg/foot comfort and durability (see pics). Maybe it would even be considered a value-added selling point.

Also, if you want to mix materials you might consider leaving some of the original wood as either a border edge combined with some other material OR vice versa (a border created by another material with the original floor left in the center) to provide visual continuity with adjoining wood floors.

Tile imitation "wood" flooring (also a fantastic website for viewing other types of flooring options):
http://www.architonic.com/pmpro/wall-tiles-wood-look-wall-tiles-wall-ceiling-finishes/3231224/2/2/1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnerd/4407816434/


Hardwood TAU Ceramica


Rubber flooring (more pics at link)
http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/kitchen-design/rubber-floors-in-the-kitchen-085615