Why aren't we speaking out? -- DU post

[AngryOldDem]

VetWife on another board has finally asked the question: What's up with the faith-bashing on DU? I have not responded yet because I want to take the time (ha -- like I HAVE the time to think anymore) to compose a thoughtful answer, but I thought you'd appreciate knowing that this issue is coming to the forefront. Perhaps if the issue is raised by one of the more "respected" members of this forum (as opposed to, say, me, a relative nobody), it might lead to some calm and perhaps constructive discourse.

Her last line, though, kind of took me aback: She asks where are the people of faith to defend themselves?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2949121

[Frogtutor]

1. It is disheartening...

I just posted on a similar topic in the Religion and Theology forum...I'll probably get flamed big-time

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=5772&mesg_id=5772

Christian's get accused all the time of forcing their beliefs down others' throats, but it's ok for atheists to force their non-beliefs down others?

I don't get it

:shrug:

[RevCheesehead]

8. Thanks for reminding me why I never go into that forum.

Funny thing is, today I just removed that very item from "My Forums" list!

I have no interest in debating my faith. I will discuss it, I will offer my insights, but I won't get into "a Defense of Christianity" with someone who wants to argue my basic tenets.

It's the same reason why I like DU - I don't have to have Republicans in my face, telling me why I am wrong in my basic identity as a Democrat.

Perhaps, just perhaps, some who vehemently argue protesteth just a bit too much?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I do it with my website. It's there as proof that liberals can

be Christians, and no one has to stay there if they don't want to.

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[Selwynn]

3. We've brought this up numerous times - if anything we are battle weary

We have done an awful lot of "speaking out" about attitudes of intolerance (and downright anti-intellectualism frankly, since so much of their posting is irrational and unjustifiably inflammatory.)

However it does very little to change anything. Most people know I've been one of the more outspoken people when religion threads get started on the general boards and turn into faith-bashing fests. I've been personally emailed by Skinner and told to stop it when I began pushing the issue, asking questions like why are other forms of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination not tolerated - say gay-bashing for example - but religious bashing is perfectly acceptable? I went to the ask the administrators boards and posted a five page response basically saying don't personally email and tell me to stop asking fair questions that deserver real answers, and that post was subsequently deleted.

That didn't deter me from continuing to stand up against attitudes of gross hatred, intolerance or insulting personal behavior when I see it. But now there are other religious forums out of the mainstream, and I tend to frequent those more often. I'm treading lightly in the general political boards because I'm very exhausted by politics, though not giving up on being alert and involved. So I probably don't see as much of the things that go on there as I would have three months ago. Anyway... I certainly speak out whenever I see something I feel is wrong, to the point of getting admins on my case over it.

Sel

[Frogtutor]

4. Selwynn, I appreciate you being out there on the front lines for us

more timid folk; I saw your post in the Religion and Theology forum earlier today, and posted in reply to another poster there. I was impressed by your post; it sums up what I think many of us are feeling lately.

Just wanted to say thanks

[AngryOldDem]

9. Those are indeed fair questions

And the fact that they are deemed to be off-limits speaks volumes. I have raised similar points publicly and have flatly been ignored, by the mods and everyone else.

What I still don't understand is how seemingly "intelligent" and "progessive" individuals can confuse the concepts of criticism and insult. As in, it's one thing to criticize the Catholic Church for its dogmas against women becoming priests. It's quite another to say that the faith as a whole is full of it and those who follow it are mindless cretins. It's one thing to point out seeming inconsistencies in a papal statement and quite another to ridicule and mock the man, sometimes quite rudely and crudely.

At times I wish I had the quick intellect to snap back posts that would make these people think. But I've come to the conclusion that they would have a comeback for whatever I said, so what's the point?

I guess our only condolence is that the hypocrisy and double standard come through loud and clear on these threads, if anyone is paying attention, posting or not.

And Selwynn, you're not the only one who's getting weary of the fight.

[Maat]

5. Hope you DUers from this group don't mind me posting.

I, for one, am so totally disgusted with the Christian-bashing going on, and I'm not a Christian. I'm a Religious Scientist, and, like UU, construing oneself as a Christian is a choice that one can make within the Church. In my faith, we regard Christ as a 'consciousness' or as a 'Master Teacher,' as with Buddha. We started our group honoring the spirit of UU and CRS.

I'm the one that started the Seekers on Unique Paths Group, but I hope that progressives of faith can stand united, and I would not hesitate to post and ask Liberal Christian DUers for support, if I needed it, or to unite for some kind of progressive purpose. Of course, I would not hesitate to diaglogue with the Atheist/Agnostics, either.

You guys would laugh at this one thread I was involved with. I recommended this group to another poster, and was accused of being a Christian who wanted to hide behind 'a gate.' I told the guy that 'we all' would enjoy our DU Groups, and to 'Have a nice day!'

I think that networking is very important. Count on me for support in making DU a place in which we can discuss faith-related topics in a respectful manner. That's why I'd like to see us 'cross-post.'

I confess I really do enjoy posting in the DU Groups, in the two groups referenced about (SOUPS group and this one), because the talk seems to be more respectful within the DU Group format.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Don't mind at all :^)

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[AngryOldDem]

10. If this isn't the spirit of ecumenism...

...I don't know what is.

Welcome, Maat! (oops...no pun intended...)

:-) :hi:

[Princess Turandot]

6. I tried ..post 99..I think the thread is now locked...

I've asked before in these religious bashing posts why the posters are attacking their fellow DU'ers. I rarely get an answer. I've become more and more convinced that they actually are bashing DU'ers in their posts more than any fundamendalist, since fundamentalists are generally not on this website. I think these posters might be intelligent enough to know who their audience is, and that an audience is not the same thing as a target, especially when the target isn't impacted by what they are writing.

Therefore, I can only conclude that the people who write vile posts about the 'other' Christians, also hate the Christians on DU, mostly because we exist. The Christian/Jewish-bashing is a club here, and I think they want DU to only have members who agree with them about religion in general, not just about the actions of fundamentalists. (The sole exception of course being Islam, because the Iraq war and/or Palestinian issue makes Muslims heroes to this board, regardless of who those Muslims even are.)

[AngryOldDem]

11. That thread was disappointing

But I can't say I wasn't surprised when I saw its quick downturn. Known entities around here, I've noticed, tend to get the kid-glove treatment by many posters (name recognition), so I thought she, if anyone, might have been able to spark some kind of respectful discourse.

<<slapping forehead>>> Silly me.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. For a thread about this topic, I thought it went

rather well, was surprised Skinner locked it.

:shrug:

[supernova]

12. Actually I do, but I'm not online 24 hours a day

I post in threads in which I feel I have something to offer, know something about the subject matter. That's true for all topics for me, including religion. Otherwise I leave it be.

I used to argue a lot more in both the religion threads and the south-bashing threads. But I learned that particular tactic wasn't productive, and certainly didn't change anybody's mind. Why? You're alwys fighting someone on their turf.

I learned over the years that to be effective, I'm better off expending my engeries in more proactive ways. I start threads about subjects that interest me and and I find useful. Other people, for a change, and accept or reject my thinking on the matter.

Check out my threads in the R&T Forum. You'll notice the absence of some of the more obnioxious people. :D

[realisticphish]

14. i used to

but i just got sick of hearing "you are all sheep" over and over again, and hearing people rant about jerry falwell and saying "SEE?? THIS IS CHRISTIANITY"


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Cheswick2.0]

15. It is really a waste of time

There are proffessional victims amoung the anti-theists. Of course their hostility is directed at liberal Christian DUers, they know we are the only ones read their rants.

[phylny]

16. I think I'm at the point - after I just responded to two more

posts regarding religion - that I'm just going to ignore them all from now on.

I can't say this for certain, but it sure seems as though many people posing questions about Christianity aren't really looking for the answers. They already know what they think, and nothing anyone else says will make a difference.

Perhaps this trend will die a slow death if many of us just ignore, let them call Christianity "evil" or call God "pretend" and they can wallow in it themselves.

Bitter much? Yeah, right now I am.

[AngryOldDem]

17. I know what you mean

Anymore I just open up these threads to see what they're about (much like the way one opens a garbage can lid to see if that is where that funny smell is coming from). I rarely stick around past five or six posts, because by that time I can tell where things are headed.

But, like anything else, DU is also current with church news that I probably would miss otherwise. So anymore, if it looks like a news story, I open it long enough to read what it is, and then close it and move on. If it looks like flamebait...I move on.

I've also pretty much convinced myself too that life is just too damn short to get my pants in a twist over how some people view religion. If they choose to be that cynical, it is ultimately their loss.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. There you go

you have figured it out. The questions are posted to start flame wars.

[RevCheesehead]

19. I'd like to report a positive experience.

I posted in some of those anit-Christian threads and got derided, told "we're not talking about ALL Christians - don't you know that?"

Then Az posted "To my fellow atheists and Non-Christians"
link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2967108

I waited a very long time (all day) before posting a response. If you read the thread, there's a lot of anger there. But there's a lot of good there, too. I was delighted that some people heard the original message and said "I've been guilty of that - I'll try to do better."

I figured out that the best thing I could do was to tell a part of my story as a liberal Christian. Then I just left it at that, didn't reply to negative posts, and thanked people for their supportive responses.

What amazed me was that yesterday, in another forum, I responded (humorously) to the topic, and the poster (who has been on my ignore list for a time), actually responded favorably, supportive, and also gave a :hi:.

I think it's about relationship-building.