Can you be considered a Christian if you don't believe in God?

[Poiuyt]

If a person lives his life according to the teachings of Jesus (except for the Holy Spirit thing) could he be considered a Christian? Or would that fall under the category of secular humanist?

[realisticphish]

1. interesting question

my first reaction would be to say no... but then again, i see you're point. i would lean towards secular humanist, just because for the general population, christian implies belief in god

[pelagius]

6. I would say an atheist would not qualify as a Christian, but...

... lest I (as a believer) grow too smug, I would also keep in mind what Jesus had to say on the topic:

‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matthew+7%3A21-27&vnum=yes&version=nrsvae

It almost seems that Jesus is saying how you live your life is what counts, not how loudly your profess your belief, doesn't it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. There's also the parable of the man with two sons

He says to the first, "Go out and work in the vineyard," and the first son says, "Okay, dad," but doesn't do it. The man says to the second son, "Go out and work and the vineyard," and the second son says, "No way," but later, he goes out and does it. Jesus then asks, "Which son actually obeyed his father?"

[shrike]

2. Well ...

Strictly speaking, no. However, if you truly live by Christ's teachings it puts you far ahead of certain very fervent Christians I know personally.
And don't forget, in the bible Jesus does not hang out with the pious, the "righteous," etc. He befriends the publicans, the sinners, the prostitutes, the Samaritans, the so-called unclean of society.
I always say that Jesus must have known how to have a good time because he hung out with the fun people.

[More Than A Feeling]

3. self-delete

[I_Make_Mistakes]

4. Absolute, and my post last nite had problems. But, yes, the issue

is who on this earth determines if you are a follower of Christ? I would like someone to answer that question.

I think that there are many atheist, agnostics, etc, because of errant so called preachers of truth, that are better Christians, than self professed Christians. That is the problem, how do we solve it?

[intheflow]

5. It could make you a Unitarian Universalist Christian.

I know a lot of UUs who lean towards that. They really dig Jesus the human man and strive to follow his loving example. But the Trinity?
Christ's divinity? They just can't buy it. Indeed, that was the original Unitarian split in the 1820's.

But following Jesus is different from not believing in God, imo. If you are an athiest, I don't think you can be considered a Chrisitian Christian. But you could still be a UU Christian.

I actually like what the poster right above me wrote, though. Who on earth can categorically say who is Christian and who is not? The current administration and other hijackers of public moral discourse all claim to be Christian, but I see very fewof them following Christ's teachings. They follow their church's teachings, which is not the same thing at all.

[Maat]

21. Hi, Intheflow!

Hope you are doing well.

By the way, Religious Scientists view Jesus of Nazareth as a good example. Presuming he existed, he is viewed as a Master Teacher.

I, too, enjoy studying Jesus' wisdom (whether some of it is legend or not), and strive to follow the loving example. And I think that is what is important.

I don't classify myself as a Christian, because I don't believe in Jesus having a special divinity (I believe we are all equally divine), but believe that I'm as good a person as the next guy or gal.

I think that both UU's and Religious Scientists are Universalists, in the sense that they honor all paths, and encourage exploration of sprirituality. Many don't belief in either Heaven or Hell (I don't).

So, in the end, I have a great deal of respect for anyone trying to follow Jesus' loving example, no matter how they classify themselves, for that is what is important.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. I'm not really sure

I think so. I'm called a Christian because I believe in him, he existed, his message(s), was baptized into him and follow him. If the apostles say something in the NT I look and see if Jesus said anything about the subject. Depending on if Jesus said something and then the apostles also touched on it I'm more then likely to follow Jesus before the apostles. My question is: do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? If so how can you not believe in God but believe in Jesus? Just something I'm interested in wondering. You don't have to answer. Oh and also to be a Christian is to be "Christ-like". I guess it could be possible. I'm not really sure.

[Poiuyt]

8. At this point I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God

I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that there is a Supreme Being. I do, however, believe in the historical Jesus. I believe he was a great teacher and leader. I can't think of anyone who would be better at teaching morality than Jesus. I like to apply what Jesus (and his disciples) said to what is happening in today's world. Note - there is a lot of hypocrisy going on from people who claim to be Christians, but don't live by His word.

[shrike]

11. As I said in my earlier post

You have a lot more going than most people, if you live by his teachings.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

9. FA, based on your touch on, it would be helpful to understand

your background, the laying on of hands plays to several different backgrounds, with many slightly different meanings.

My personal belief is that while JC preached, it was his actions that led people to follow. That is where the walk the walk, not talk the talk comes from. I have so many stories in my personal life of the talk the talk. One of my supervisors (who was out at strip bars and got drunk every week,(married with 2 daughters and a former drug seller), told me I would go to Hell if I learned Tao chi. I needed Tao Chi, because this bastard took advantage of me (a workaholic, clinically diagnosed, after the shingles at 30), and his boss told me I was doing 75% of the work for the entire dept.

Last, I heard, after he gave his notice and lied about a college degree to the tech headhunters he was ostracized from the tech. community for fraud, he was going to become a Methodist preacher.

This is a fundie Methodist church, and not representative of the Methodist faith. They crawl out from under the rocks, so, the laid hands on is very telling.

He probably had those hands laid on him as all those RC priests who abused the children also probably did too. You need to really read those parts of the Bible, with the Wisdom of the Holy S or G, depending on your version to understand the loving gesture of a loving Lord.

[RevCheesehead]

10. Is he United Methodist, or Primitive Methodist?

They're vastly different. In the UMC, any ordination is screened very carefully through the district, then the Board of Ordained Ministry. Second-career people are looked at very closely - including the question "why do you feel called to ministry?" Plus they have to go through criminal background checks and intense psychological profiles.

These rigid hoops were put in place because for too many years, really problematic people slipped through - and the denomination has paid a price for it.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

12. Rev I love your posts. I would not know that, I am ELCA, but I

could tell you the church and the location, if that would help. My neighbor (70 some year old Swedish Lutheran went to their church, once I think). He said that they were crazy there and went back to a ELCA church. I never caught why he did go there in the first place, he had a stroke and moved to an age appropriate living establishment.

The problem was, they kept hounding him with phone calls after he told them, he was not interested in their church. It used to tick him off, to the point of severe agitation, (I was there several times when they called), which was detrimental to his health.

One of my best friends was RC and married a UMC (family more of a church issue than him) fellow. She became a UMC member and participates substantially with the churches business. That is how I know of the goodness of the UMC. Her father had esophageal (sp?) cancer, and the priests where her mother donated (approx. 5000.00/yr, which she didn't have, were not there during his suffering). The UMC Pastor was wonderful and tended to his needs, and also performed the sermon at the funeral.

I am an ELCA'er because I KNOW that is where I am supposed to be (Went to Medjughore, Bosnia, just 2 weeks after the Kosovo bombings stopped, in a search for the Lord). I was verging on RC, but got put back into place really quick.

I know what a great church and people live in the UMC, your house is beautiful. So, neighbor, are we in full communion yet?

And, I have a question about the tea totaler Methodists. I was in PT and a guy was saying his wife was a tt Methodist (Irish no less).
What is the reasoning behind this, and how does that apply to communion?

[RevCheesehead]

13. Oy. tt = tea totaller, a member of the temperance movement

It was part of late 19th and early 20th century Methodism. Banish alcohol, and all the social problems of the world will be solved. It's where we get that term "demon alcohol" from - because it was so evil that nobody could control their drinking.

Since people bought into that way of thinking, the ME (that's the old name, "Methodist-Episcopal") decided that even communion could become corrupted by the use of alcohol. It never occured to them that people "couldn't get enough of Jesus." So one of the loyal church members, Dr. Thomas Welch (a dentist, not a physician) invented a "non-fermented wine beverage" that he tried to push on local churches to use instead of wine. For some reason, the Methodists thought that was a good idea - and we've never used wine since then.

*although there is nothing in the Discipline which would prohibit the use of wine, there is that nasty thing called "tradition...", meaning for the last 100 of our 220+ year history, we didn't use wine. Oddly enough, that's more important that the previous 1750+ years of using it, or the fact that Jesus used it, and even dabbled in making it. One of my Southern preacher friends refers to the Miracle at Cana, where Jesus turned water into Grape Juice. :)

[I_Make_Mistakes]

14. I watched a show either the History Channel or PBS. Where they

had tested wine casks from Egypt and the scientists, said that the wine in the days of Moses was more like our beer of today.

I never really looked into the validity of claim, but I always giggle
a little before Communion, just wondering.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. My father the Lutheran pastor used to occasionally encounter people

who objected to using wine for Communion.

He would ask them when grapes were harvested. Usually they knew that grapes are harvested in the fall.

He would then ask them when the Last Supper took place. If they didn't know, he'd drop the hint that it was a Passover seder, which would usually clue them in to the fact that it took place in the spring.

He would then ask them if they had refrigeration two thousand years ago. Of course, not.

Gradually the light would go on in their eyes. Any grape juice kept for six months in a warm climate without refrigeration would ferment, no matter what you did.

Some people, of course, cannot drink alcohol. The Lutherans, who use individual little cups of wine set in a circular tray, let it be known that the center ring contains grape juice.

The Episcopalians, who use a common cup, allow people to signal that they don't want to receive it by crossing their arms over their chest.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. That is a great way to explain (fermentation). You described our

churches serving also. It was a pet peeve of Martin Luther to have both elements (wine and bread) served at communion, which also makes it important to our church.

When people ask about our communion distribution I explain, that we first take the bread and then the wine, the first thing out of their mouths, "Is the bread leaven?". I said it is fresh baked and I am sure is it is supposed to be leaven it is. I really should ask, but, it's like because so many churches use wafers, they're either jealous or angry that we have real bread.

[Critters2]

68. When I came here

they were using wine and white grape juice for people who wouln't/couldn't drink alcohol. I was troubled by the lack of meaningful symbolism in white juice, and raised this with my deacons. We talked long and hard about the issue. There are a couple of people, most notably my moderator, who WILL NOT drink alcohol because of alcoholism in their families. Not having this experience firsthand, I'm not clear whether the fear of one tiny drink of wine is "reality-based" or not. But after weighing several alternatives, we've gone back to the old Congregational (not E&R--we Germans like our wine!)tradition of using only grape juice. I'm not altogether comfortable with this, but I like ti better than white grape juice, and it was clear that wine alone was going to be contentious.

There are things worth going to the barricades for. The wine/grape juice debate doesn't seem like one of 'em to me. But I do wish Dr. Welch had left well enough alone :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

69. My church serves both wine and juice

We get different colors of each, and we always have the juice on the outside ring of the tray and the wine on the inside, so the pastor can say "outside tray, dark color, is grape juice; light color, inside tray, is wine". Though they are both purple/red, they are different shades.

I think that's a fair to do it - I never had wine for communion until I went to an Episcopal church when I was an adult, and I thouht, "Hey - I like this; I can actually FEEL it" because of the warmth of the alcohol. It made communion a much more sensual event, and now I prefer to take wine for communion.

[Critters2]

70. We talked about having a ring of grape juice

There were all kinds of logistical issues that the deacons raised. There was concern that people would be confused as to which ring was which (I personally think my parishioners are bright enough to figure it out, but I was outvoted on that issue!). Then someone suggested leaving an empty ring between the two kinds of cups. That was vetoed because we're growing and they need to get as many cups in each tray as possible, or else we'll need to fill more trays, have more servers, etc.

I mean honestly, the objections to each solution were quite creative. I really think some wanted to go back to just grape juice, and I hate to have moved in that direction. But I still like it better than the very odd white grape juice.

I'm still working on this, though!!

[funflower]

18. I believe you can be a Christian and an atheist/agnostic.

Jesus said "Follow me" not "Believe I'm the Son of God." There are a handful of statements attributed to Jesus in which he seems to imply he has a special relationship with God, but I can't think of any scripture (not that I believe the gospels are 100% accurate historical records of the life of Jesus or that believing they are is a prerequisite to following Jesus)in which Jesus states that belief in his own divinity is the central issue for people who wish to become his followers. I think this understanding was developed later and, of course, continues to this day.

I think some scholars would question whether the early Christians believed he was divine.

Of course, this doesn't reach the question of whether they believed in the existence of God. Since they were first century Jews, I would presume that at least most of them did believe in God. However, I don't think this is necessarily central to the definition of Christianity as Jesus and his first followers understood it.

Personally, I think the important question we should be asking when trying to understand and follow Jesus is "how?" not "who?"

Just my two cents.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

19. You are speaking to, I believe, the choir. Our voices are not heard

above the the RR clamor. JC, set the example of how to talk and act, word and deed, in honoring his Father's creation. (I do not take the stance that Christianity is the only way, just mine, so, for those of other benevolent faiths, please understand, you are welcome here too).

[funflower]

20. Nice to know there's a choir out there somewhere.

:hi:

[supernova]

33. This is the vew I've come to understand

after a lot of soul-searching.

Was Jesus divine? I don't know.

Does it matter whether he was? I'm thinking not. The point of his message remains the same, regardless of his status as a divine being.

I'm thinking that possibly the point of all paths, including xtianity, is to become closer to God. What does that mean? To me it means wanting to learn, to understand, to grow in that love and forgiveness of self, of others... when you do that, when Jesus did that, he possibly *became* divine. It's a state you can grow into, in other words. Jesus was demonstrating something we all are born with the capacity for, but very few of us bother to obtain (Jesus, Buddha).

You can think of it as a varient on the "we are all one" theme. Xtianity already has the concept that there is the spark of the divine in all of us. But

Maybe this is closer to the Gnostic understanding of God. *sigh*

[BlackVelvet04]

47. Actually Jesus also said, "I and the Father are one"....

and "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the word was God."

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. No.

You can be a Jesus-follower, though.

Just like the gentiles who believed in God were called "God-fearers" and not Jews, so also you can't be Christian if you don't believe in God, but you CAN be a Jesus-follower, one who follows the ethical teachings of Jesus.

I don't even know why anyone would want to call themselves a Christian if they don't believe in God - I wouldn't want to.

To be a Christian is to believe in the divinity of Jesus. THat is the historic and traditional definition of a Christian.

Anything else would be like me saying that I am a lesbian because I have a sexual preference for women (and I'm a guy, in case anyone reading this doesn't know that) or that I'm a soldier because I really like Patton (and I am not in, nor ever have been in, the military, for those who don't know).

Why would I take someone else's label and use it for my own purposes? I'd rather make my own label.

[RevCheesehead]

23. I tend to agree, Rabrrrrr.

But at the same time, I'm not convinced that our congregational members are as theologically astute.

I was shocked (shocked, I say!), when one of my church members told me he was probably more of a "hopeful agnostic" - but he came to church because it helped him focus on caring for the environment, treating people better, etc...

I just wonder if they crossed their fingers when they took their membership vows. :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. Well, I *do* think one can be a questioning and/or agnostic Christian --

at least the mind is still open at that point, and they are, if nothing else, seeking.

Hopefully we are all in the realm of always searching, seeking, and never quite sure - that is the crux of faith, believing without proof or any rational reason.

I have my times and moments of doubt, but I find that the majority of the time I'm pretty sure so I can say that, yes, I accept and claim Jesus as my Lord and Savior, even though some days I think it's pretty fuckin' insane and against my better judgment. :-)

I like the phrase "hopeful agnostic" - would that all Christians 9and all people of faith) would live in that zone. It would be nice to get rid of the fundamentalists of all religions, and make the earth safe.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

25. Oh, so, if you were not raised in a household, that taught you to

believe there was a God, and Jesus, you can not be a Christian? Please, Rev. you actually, surprised me.

I was the product of a RC (Catholic educated father) and a UCC converted by their mom (grandmother Mennonite) mother. It caused so many problems, I wish I wasn't born at all, seriously, yes 11 months after their marriage!

My sister and I were exposed to God. At confirmation age, I asked to be confirmed, my friends were Lutheran, and that was my choice for confirmation.

I, at 29yrs. old took the position, poop or get off the pot, after saying the Lord's prayer for almost my whole life every single night of of my life, I actually, said God if you want me to go to Church, than you have to find me a Church.

I was driving to my new doctor, 15 minutes away, and there was a Church, it was Holy Nativity, and EL CA, I noticed on the way and stopped in the parking lot on the way home to write down the phone number and service schedule.

I went to the Church and it fit.

Your posts above, seem so Holier than thou, maybe I misinterpreted, or maybe you need to check your humility at the the board.

And, I don't own the Lord, he owns me!

I took a strong offense by something above, I am not even sure what.

I know my response will come off strong and that is ok with me, because Jesus in not a joke, or a question, if he is not in your heart, body and soul then you should really question your comittment, because there is no going back.

Have you ever, risked your life, ( I mean, know you could die, and still decided to help God's child (the unknown victimn because, it was the right thing to do?)).

If not, then you with your pompous talk are just talking the talk, I got played, because, I thought it couldn't happen here!

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. You're not sure what you took offense, but you took offense

at something.

Why don't you spend the time to go find it?

It does no one any good to not specify what you took offense at.

And I can't tell if you are responding to me or to Rev Cheesehead.

Also - what in the hell are you talking about? Your mangled syntax, your hyper-emotional diatribe style of writing, and your unfocused and unclear presentation of ideas leave me befuddled. All I can figure is that you are bothered by whatever it is that you misread. But, it's hard to tell, because most of your post makes no sense; makes no sense on its own, and especially makes no sense in relation to the post to which you are responding and/or the subject of this thread.

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. Secondly, please point out where I or anyone else

said that if you weren't raised a Christian you can't be a Christian? I certainly never said it, and never would, and I know RevCheesehead didn't say it.

Perhaps you need to spend more time reading before conjuring up a response.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

34. Ok, first off I have to apologize, I was challenged on Fri. a very

difficult day for me (between my infirmities and the dryer vent problem, installation issues with the new appliances that were coming and contractor issues) and the Buds were on tap.

My offense, I think that you tried to totally tie God to Jesus. That is the faith that I believe in, however, I do not believe this is the only path for all those on Earth.

I transferred to a Methodist College (liberal I am guessing by the teachings, I was exposed to in Old Testament and Non-Western Religions) that fulfilled my Religious Teachings requirements (I took a Philosophy class at PSU) to complete the 3 class requirement.

In 2000, I went to Medjughore (sp?), Bosnia (after reading a book my RW Catholic girlfriend sent me). I call her RW because her Diocese was called out by the Vatican for spreading a false tale about 3 days of darkness. Anyways, in the the book, "Med. the Message" written by a Lutheran (not sure which of the 3, Wayne Wible had a profound impact on me).

After 911, I found beliefnet and learned about Islam. Those educated in Islam, (which according to the Med. book there was a Muslim woman who was going to become a Saint) know our Bible very well, and there is a passage in Matthew, I believe that says Jesus had other flocks that needed to be tended too! I have it documented somewhere, but not sure where it is, but when I get time to look, I will post it!

I think that is where I took offense it was the Jesus-God like it is the only way. I also believe as the 12 tribes were spread with different languages, there is too much to God for any of us to know. I judge others by their living and not by there professions of Faith, Satan is a good Bible quoter, but does that make him Chritian?

[Critters2]

71. Being the lefty-lib church in town

I get people in new members class who raise these questions. I always tell 'em that they are welcome to come every Sunday, send their kids to Sunday School, eat at our potlucks, drop money in the offering plate. BUt if they can't in good conscience affirm Jesus as Lord and Savior, as the Book of Worship asks, I'd rather they didn't officially join. So far everyone has joined, often after I do a lot of explaining as to how our brand of Christianity isn't the oppressive brand they grew up with or are familiar with. That they can affirm Christ's divinity and not become RW wackjobs seems like what they really want to hear.

Now I'm trying to figure out how I can have a deacon who tells me he was never baptized!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

26. What a stupid, yes, I said stupid comment. What are you a Jew

by the Old Testament standard or a Gentile, you need to actually grasp your own identity. I have no ill will towards, Jews, Gentiles etc., you seem to have a rating system.

That is okay with me, because you are no one, Jesus is my Lord and My Judge.

You, and I will be Judged, Your Holier than attitude will lower your self deluded position. I hope you like cleaning toilets.

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. What in the hell are you talking about?

I assume you mean "Holier than thou" attitude - where do you get that?

You hope I like cleaning toilets?

Sweet mother of God, take the obstruction out of your bowels and a) start making sense, and b) tell me, specifically, where you are getting these ideas from my post.

:shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. You do indeed, make

mistakes. Is there any chance you are a bit impaired as you wrote this? Because it's not usually a good idea to post when you...um...have had a few.

That's the only explanation I can come up with because I can't figure out what the heck you are talking about.

I hope you feel better soon!

[realisticphish]

65. lol

you know those posts are from last november, right? :D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

66. Good Lord, no!

I didn't bother to look at the date! How embarrassing! I guess somebody kicked it up? Is this poor person still around? Did he/she ever sober up?

[realisticphish]

67. who knows

:shrug:

and yeah, it got kicked deliberately since we had so many newcomers to the group. And it's fine, I've done it before, myself :D

[Critters2]

72. I didn't notice it either!!

I've been chatting away in a sub-thread that's been dead for months!! Must...learn..to...read

:banghead:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

27. First of all, The Old testament is documented and is a set of God's

laws. Yes, God, not Jesus, God's Law's.

The New Testament is the revision of God's law with the introduction of Grace, it is the free gift from God, with the understanding that anyone, who is truly regretful, can and will be forgiven.

You, guys tag teamed us, at DU, to play your games. It is ok, because we are not to judge, but you will be judged, so have at it!

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. Who tag teamed you? How?

I was no part of any "tag team". Nor part of any "games". :shrug:

Perhaps you should spend more time reading before you offer a response.

[RevCheesehead]

32. ??

Did someone get access to your password? This doesn't sound like you at all!

I don't understand what you're upset about. :shrug:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

35. I am re-posting because it might get lost in the shuffle and I do

actually make mistakes.

Ok, first off I have to apologize, I was challenged on Fri. a very difficult day for me (between my infirmities and the dryer vent problem, installation issues with the new appliances that were coming and contractor issues) and the Buds were on tap.

My offense, I think that you tried to totally tie God to Jesus. That is the faith that I believe in, however, I do not believe this is the only path for all those on Earth.

I transferred to a Methodist College (liberal I am guessing by the teachings, I was exposed to in Old Testament and Non-Western Religions) that fulfilled my Religious Teachings requirements (I took a Philosophy class at PSU) to complete the 3 class requirement.

In 2000, I went to Medjughore (sp?), Bosnia (after reading a book my RW Catholic girlfriend sent me). I call her RW because her Diocese was called out by the Vatican for spreading a false tale about 3 days of darkness. Anyways, in the the book, "Med. the Message" written by a Lutheran (not sure which of the 3, Wayne Wible had a profound impact on me).

After 911, I found beliefnet and learned about Islam. Those educated in Islam, (which according to the Med. book there was a Muslim woman who was going to become a Saint) know our Bible very well, and there is a passage in Matthew, I believe that says Jesus had other flocks that needed to be tended too! I have it documented somewhere, but not sure where it is, but when I get time to look, I will post it!

I think that is where I took offense it was the Jesus-God like it is the only way. I also believe as the 12 tribes were spread with different languages, there is too much to God for any of us to know. I judge others by their living and not by there professions of Faith, Satan is a good Bible quoter, but does that make him Christian?

[RevCheesehead]

36. That's an entirely different issue.

The question in the OP is can you be considered a Christian if you don't believe in God? There was nothing regarding salvation, who knows God, what the right path may be, etc.... The question to me sounded like a membership qualification: "OK, I want to join the Jesus Club - but do I have to believe in God to join?"

I took Rabrrrr's post to say "no, but you can be a Friend of Jesus - not quite the same as full membership, but you can hang around the clubhouse."

Church membership is something I take very, very seriously - for obvious reasons. In our membership liturgy (based on the baptismal covenant), we ask them the questions (based on the Apostles' Creed), "Do you believe in God the Father?" "Do you Belive in Jesus Christ?" "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?" If someone cannot answer yes to these questions, then I would strongly suggest to them that membership in the United Methodist Church probably is not what they are seeking.

(Just for the record: I'm pretty much a universalist at heart. I think God wants EVERYONE in heaven. And, if anyone has a claim at being the ONLY way, it's the Jews, NOT the Christians.)

[I_Make_Mistakes]

37. Well, Rev and Rbrrr, I hope you accepted my apology. I guess

the problem here is, many RW'ers believe that salvation and the profession of being Christian are one in the same (word without deed to me is nothing).

That is why they are offensive to me, they treat their neighbor like crap, because they are saved and can do no wrong. At least, that is the way they behave around here.

I have already stated here, that I am not good at expressing myself and hope that will be a consideration in accepting my apologies.

On edit: I think that God is born into our hearts, we can choose to follow or not, but just professing "I am a Christian, does not make a Christian (or in my definition, a child of God)"! It is the following of God's will, that makes us a child of the Lord (I use Lord, because it seems to be more universal).

Ok, here is my last lame attempt to express myself, "If you follow your heart and live a Christ-like life, is it imperative to call yourself a Christian (man-made term)?". And, then, to also go to a so-named Christian church, because their are so many Christ-unlike churches?

[RevCheesehead]

38. Ah - I think I see what you're saying.

Again, I don't see Jesus as the ONLY way to salvation. But for the Christian community, he IS the only way (vs. the way of the gnostics). Fundies mis-read John's gospel, thinking Jesus is claiming exclusivity... and they ignore all of Paul's teachings on God's covenant relationship with the Jews. All others outside the covenant are still members of the human family... and we Christians are grafted on to the family through Jesus.

Then they forget the biggest part of all: The covenant between God and God's people is for the people "to be a light to ALL NATIONS." That simply means, lighting the path to God so others may follow.

(and, apology accepted. Peace.)

[I_Make_Mistakes]

39. Thanks, My words are not my way of expressing things and I am

glad you took the time to find the meaning!

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. Hmmm....

You asked

"If you follow your heart and live a Christ-like life, is it imperative to call yourself a Christian (man-made term)?"

It is only imperative to call yourself a Christian if you believe that Jesus is the son of God, and also IS God, who came to earth in human form to bring salvation. I hope that the profession of that faith would lead one to live a Christ-like life, but quite honestly, behavior has nothing to do with it - you are Christian if you profess Jesus as lord and savior. (and leave it up to your community to help you decide if you are a faithful in that claim or not).

Our behavior has nothing to do with it - that's a kind of weird thinking really bothers me, to say "His behavior is so Christian", as though only Christians engage in good behavior, or have some kind of monopoly in moral and ethical behavior.

Many people live Christ-like lives -- a friend of mine in college always impressed with me his stupendous generosity, non-attachment to material things, and complete interest in other people and helping them, but he was adamantly atheist. Not everyone who lives a Christ-like life is Christian, and, sadly, not every Christian lives a Christ-like life.

I would never attempt to complement a Jew or a Buddhist or an atheist, etc., with "You are so Christian!" or - and I've heard this said from others - "I know you aren't Christian, but you are one of the most Christian people I know!", solely because of their good behavior.

:wtf:

Even Jesus said something to the effect that even the (bad people you don't like) give their children food and love them.

One is Christian by PROFESSION only! Nothing about behavior.

One's faithfulness as a Christian is judged by one's behavior. And that's where division in the church comes from, arguments over what behaviors are considered faithful and what ones are not.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

41. I feel sorry for you, you think being Christian is only declaring that

that Jesus was the Son and part of the Father makes you a Christian?

I say part, because even, Jesus, did not know the time and the date of the End Times. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit (Ghost) make the wholeness of Our God. Apparently, you missed the Trinity in your teachings, or just decided to forget that.

Jesus, came to Earth in the form of a human (still God, but God is smarter than you or me) and let himself experience the human condition without the God interference, yet not without the knowledge of God).

Jesus, always offered his hand to those in NEED, whatever their NEED was. He never said, "If you don't proclaim yourself a Christian, then you are going to HELL!".

This part of your quote is, God forgive me, the dumbest and I mean dumbest thing I have ever heard. "behavior has nothing to do with it - you are Christian if you profess Jesus as lord and savior."

That statement to me, reveals you have no friggin clue who Jesus was and why he was here!

Jesus, lived humbly, and showed his love of the Father in his Works, followed by words. Words without deeds, is shallow, empty and soooo
devoid of the teachings of Jesus.

You got me, I actually thought you had something worthwhile to say.

Bye, bye and good riddance!

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Wow, you are really fucking rude.

I would love to be equally rude back and as dismissive and assholish as you, but I won't. But I have a few questions:

1. Where did I ever say that Trinity is irrelevant? Or dismiss the Trinity? I never even mentioned it, so stop putting words in my mouth that aren't there. Unless you can quote me, don't say that I said something.

2. Where did I say taht non-Christians are going to hell? I've never said that, I don't believe it. Again, you are putting words in my mouth, which is rude. Quite un-Jesus-like, in fact.

3. You say that I am really dumb - well, the truth is this: The only requirement to be a Christian is to profess faith in Jesus Christ. Check your church history, check the books of worship of every expression of Christianity in the world and through time. They all agree - it's about expression of faith.

As I said before, and you would know this if you had bothered to actually read what I say instead of what you wish I were saying, is that the hope is that the good works and good deeds will follow the profession - that people who profess to be Christian will live lives worthy of the example of Jesus.

I also said, as you would know if you bothered to read my posts instead of engaging in eisegesis, that we determine whether one is a faithful/unfaithful Christian by their deeds and their works; but even if they are the most miserable sinner (and that's all of us, by the way), so long as they profess faith, they are a Christian. They might be a god-awful hypocrite, but then who of us isn't guilty of that at one time or another?

The historical teaching of the Church is that works do not get us into heaven. Personally, I'm a universalist - I think everyone gets in, no matter what our behavior is, because I believe in a God of forgiveness and grace.

Perhaps you were just drinking again when you posted this, and didn't mean it to be so angry and rude. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, following the example of Jesus.

[RevCheesehead]

43. You know, this is the second time you've flown off the handle.

Rabrrrrr is a friend of mine, and one of the most grounded Christians I have come across on all of DU. You are being dismissive of one of the smartest people to come to this group - and quite frankly, you are not reading what he is saying correctly.

Is English a second language for you? Do you have trouble following what he's saying??? Because his posts make perfect sense - at least, they do for those who have a theological education.

I'm sorry, but you've shown both through your posts and your PM's that you are unable to place nicely. "Bye, bye and good riddance!" is not what I expect to hear from someone who professes the Christian faith.

If you persist in this weird behavior, I'll have no other option than to put you on ignore.

And I'll leave you with one final thought: What would Jesus do?

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. Thanks for the compliments!

I'm blushing...

[BlackVelvet04]

46. Exactly. Thank you n/t

[GOPBasher]

45. I agree with that.

I wouldn't call a person who doesn't believe in God a Christian; however, that person can still be called a follower of Jesus. That's not to put down anyone's beliefs; I just don't believe it's useful to stretch out a definition of something like "Christian" so far that it doesn't have much meaning anymore.

Anyone can believe anything. But, I wouldn't call myself an atheist just because I think secular humanism is a great philosophy.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

48. There's other issues here, that I will show you, I came here a little wary

It is only imperative to call yourself a Christian if you believe that Jesus is the son of God, and also IS God, who came to earth in human form to bring salvation. I hope that the profession of that faith would lead one to live a Christ-like life, but quite honestly, behavior has nothing to do with it - you are Christian if you profess Jesus as lord and savior. (and leave it up to your community to help you decide if you are a faithful in that claim or not).

Answer: (I guess, It would depend on who your community is! The RW Christians are pretty sure their community is the the only Christian colony!)

Our behavior has nothing to do with it - that's a kind of weird thinking really bothers me, to say "His behavior is so Christian", as though only Christians engage in good behavior, or have some kind of monopoly in moral and ethical behavior.

Ans:(Because, I think their are better Christians, living through their deeds in sometimes, non-Christian lives or co's)

Many people live Christ-like lives -- a friend of mine in college always impressed with me his stupendous generosity, non-attachment to material things, and complete interest in other people and helping them, but he was adamantly atheist. Not everyone who lives a Christ-like life is Christian, and, sadly, not every Christian lives a Christ-like life.

(Ans: What part of HIS life was not Christian, his non-progression of Christianity (made up by the early RC Church?)? Jesus, never said, "If you don't profess Christianity, (not, even a term till how many years after he was dead, resurrected and ascended, a religion?), Jesus was a Jew, just for clarification!)).

That is a RW term, Christianity, because, us left Christians, know that professing in the streets and temple are wrong, right?


I would never attempt to complement a Jew or a Buddhist or an atheist, etc., with "You are so Christian!" or - and I've heard this said from others - "I know you aren't Christian, but you are one of the most Christian people I know!", solely because of their good behavior.
(Ans: If you did, as I have, they might actually appreciate it. My church and the local RC, and synagogue have offered worship services based on building needs! You see, different days, and so, please forgive me for not understanding, your misunderstanding of other faiths).

Even Jesus said something to the effect that even the (bad people you don't like) give their children food and love them.

One is Christian by PROFESSION only! Nothing about behavior.

(Ans: Read Galatians, I guess, it didn't get to your Church yet, but it will. That's okay, I still have a life time of learning Bible, as do you.)

[Rabrrrrrr]

49. Do you even read what we write?

I have the impression that you don't. It's more helpful in the dialogue when both parties are listening to one another, and you are falling short in that responsbility.


Let me answer a couple things: my friend in college was not a Christian because he was an athiest. YOU might think he was Christian because he was a good person, but HE would be VERY offended if you called him a Christian. So, he is NOT a Christian by the fact that he does not profess to be a Christian.

And I have read Galatians - read it many times, including my class on it in seminary. Please tell me how you think it relevant to the question at hand, and then I will attemp to respond.

You are very much mixing up "good behavior" with "being Christian". While I agree that a Christian SHOULD show good behavior, good behavior does not make a Christian. Jews, Muslims, atheists, Hindus, buddhists, all exhibit good behavior. That doesn't make them Christian. Just like my friend in college - good behavior, even exemplary behavior, but he was definitely not a Christian, and would be very pissed at you for calling him one.

And please, spend more time actually reading what people are writing. It will help the dialogue.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

51. Okay, here goes, first off rude, is using the "F" word. I got a parrot

who cleaned my vocabulary (I would never have an innocent repeating my foul mouth!). She actually learned (WUCKET, from a 3 minute conversation with my father), I want her to be adoptable, so I don't curse in front of her anymore.

Here goes, the riptoid. I have had professed Chritians, borrow, $300 and $700 off me. Yes, I paid for the bounced checks too!

The first was, the electric co. is going to shut off service in Nov. and DEFUS(sp. not sure will take them, the second is the same, and there are many more stories.

Are those professed Christians, Christians? I got stuck with their bills, shame on me!

Oh, yea, GWB is a Christian too! Right?

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. I didn't use the "F" word, but, you know, whatever

Just more proof that you don't actually read what we write.

Lots of Christians sin - in fact, I don't know a single one who doesn't. I don't know a single non-Christian who doesn't sin, either.

And yes, our piece of shit president is a Christian - he's a pretty damned rotten one, in my opinion, but he is, he says, a Christian.

It's not up to me to tell someone what their religion is or isn't. But as I've said before - which you would know, had you read my posts - it's up to the community to decide how faithful they are in that profession of faith.

[Perky]

76. I agree

[mzmolly]

50. In my opinion, yes. Just like one can follow the teachings of Gandhi

and be an atheist.

[MemphisTiger]

53. I would say no

because Jesus was sent here by God to forgive our sins. Therefore, if you don't believe in God the father you don't believe in Jesus. You can respect his teachings, but not be a Christian.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

54. Point missed! Did Jesus call himself a Christian? No! There are

many who call themselves Christian, myself, being one. My, definition, is following the commandments of Jesus Christ, by my interpreters definitions, the Sacraments: 1). Baptism 2). the Holy Communion, period!

Everyone, comes here with their own ideology of being Christian, and NO ONE knows the TRUE definition. There is no one here, who IS GOD!

The joke among serious Lutheran's (which we are called by our own faith), is that Martin Luther would turn over in his grave, because we are called Lutherans (that is my same feeling, and I think Jesus Christ would have the same reaction). How dare WE HUMAN's come up with a term for God!

How dare we pretend to know God's will, and his plan for us! Who are we?, but servants of the Father and nothing else.

You may think I come off as Holier than thou, and yet I am so humbly his servant that you would change your opinion (I am a PROUD DOORMAT, because I serve a greater Power!)

[Rabrrrrrr]

55. You are humble? And a doormat?

:wow:

:eyes:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

56. Yes, I actually am. You wouldn't knew it, because you don't know

me and posts come off differently then human interaction. I have also given and chose sacrificing my own needs for someone else. When I was 12yrs old and worked a paper route (as a girl) I treated my friends to ice cream and my dad told me I was trying to buy friends. I was divested, my point, was it was my money, I worked for it and I wanted to SHARE! That's what I was taught in Vacation Bible school, my only Church teachings.

I have been used by every kind of so called Christian (I thought that a Christian wouldn't borrow books, money, etc. and not return them, but those who profess to be Christian every day, lie, cheat, steal, bear false witness, murder, etc. That is my jaded past. So, those self professed Christians who violate everything that Christ stood for, are saved because of what? They say "I am a Christian?".

I remember taking a train to Manhattan, (worked on Wall Street for a temporary time) and seeing 2 guys taking a leak as the train passed. I was numb. It was less than 10 minutes later, that I said "God, please don't let my heart turn black and not be offended by anything". Yes, it was completely offensive to see humans urinating on private property and on public display.

I have been taken advantage of financially, while on short term disability to the tune of thousands, I was not even working, but, would give the dollars off my back to those who spent more than me!

Yep, I am a door mat and proud of it, because at the end of the day, you give it to the Lord and learn to be a little smarter!. I would still help those in need, but differently, cash is the wrong answer, grocery cards etc are much smarter!

So, maybe, now, you might get my, "I profess that I am a saved by Jesus Christ" as not good enough to constitute be a follower of Jesus Christ!

And, just to be clear, just last month, I provided my neighbor (laid off) and her son 10 dinners of home cooked meals, till I learned she couldn't give up her digital cable at $60/month, mine is $10/month.

[Rabrrrrrr]

57. Well, then, your model is the sine qua non of Christian-ness

The model, the authority, the apex, the acme, the very pinnacle of the minimum by which a person shoudl be judged to be "Christian" or "Worthless ass".

Henceforth, contrary to church tradition and 2000 years of church doctrine which has determined that a person is Christian is through profession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you shall be the standard by which someone is judged to be Christian based solely on good works.

Son of a bitch. I guess 3-4 billion "Christians" over the last 2000 years have just been fucked in the head and clueless; and, come to find, they weren't even Christian! I know I am not a Christian, because I have sinned and continue to sin, which obviously is in direct contradistinction to a Christian.

Well, we're always glad when someone comes along to give us the truth.

[StoryTeller]

58. Being considered a Christian

I saw this question several days ago and thought it was really interesting. How can you truly follow the teachings of Jesus *without* believing in God? You could pick and choose which teachings to adhere to, I suppose, but that sort of buffet-style belief doesn't make you a "follower" of any religious leader, in the sense that most people use the term "follower."

Here are some teachings of Jesus that would be difficult to follow without a belief in God: (And by "God" I mean the Jewish Yahweh, because that is the God that Jesus taught about.)

1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind. (Mark 12:23-34, Luke 10:25-28)
2) Blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. (Luke 11:28)
3) Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's. (Luke 20:19-26)
4) The entire "you must be born again" teaching found in John 3.

Those are some direct instructions that would be hard to follow without a belief in God. But if you really study the rest of Jesus' teachings and stories, you'll find that they are predicated on the assumption of God's existence and personal interest in humanity.

Now, I do think that a person can definitely have ethics and morals that would be in line with Jesus' teachings on many issues without that person believing in any sort of god at all. But I think it would be inaccurate to say that any moral or ethical person must automatically be a Christian or a follower of Christ. That's blurring the definition of the Christian faith, and could be construed as a put-down for an athiest or non-Christian because it implies that the only morality and ethics are to be found in believing in a divine power or following Jesus. I know a LOT of very moral and ethical people who do not follow Jesus' teachings, and I don't think it's doing any favors to them or to my faith to say they are "Christian" when they are not.

I think what Jesus' teaching, and a belief in God, does for morality and ethics is provide the "why" for that moral, ethical behavior. Other religions provide this "why" within the contexts of their own moral codes, but there are many of Jesus' teachings that are unique to Him. I think belief in the God presented in the Bible is one of those teachings that is central to being His follower.

[no name no slogan]

59. You can be a liberal Quaker

accepting the existence of God is not required in many liberal Quaker meetings.

[Rabrrrrrr]

60. I'm kicking this, now that we have some new people

who seem to be hanging out in this forum.

[realisticphish]

61. good idea nt

[TallahasseeGrannie]

62. I wouldn't think so

you could be "like" a Christian, but not a Christian. Unless you believe in Christ without believing in God, and that's kind of backwards. Most of the folks I know who don't believe in God would bristle at being called a Christian. However, I think there are certainly lots of folks who attend Christian churches for their own reasons but are really atheists or agnostics.

[okasha]

64. Interesting question.

The instinctive response is "no," if for no other reason that that Jesus himself believed utterly in Yahweh, and everything he did and taught and was, was firmly set in the matrix of that belief. Stickier is whether one can be a Christian without believing that Jesus was inherently and eternally divine, existing outside of time as a person of the Trinity. I think there are a number of people who quite sincerely and honestly call themselves Christian who don't believe that, some of them Christian clergy. To come at it from another angle, though, even a pagan (myself, for example) can believe that Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, son of David, could come to embody the divine essence in a perfect and transparent way. (I hope I'm making sense to those who see it differently.)

[JVS]

73. No

[Rabrrrrrr]

74. I'm the kind of guy who likes to kick the fire to see if it's really out...

so :kick:

[Critters2]

75. Hmmm.....nuthin'

I'd say it's out.

[Rabrrrrrr]

77. I think so... I've long been hoping that the one up above,

I can't remember the name, the one with the very difficult to parse English (which is due, I think, to a form of mental illness and not necessarily just not knowing how to use English; it is very similar to the style of other mentally unbalanced people's writings that I've had the pleasure of reading over the years - fascinating stuff, that, and I recommend it to everyone to read the writings of the insane, mentally unbalanced, paranoid, and schizophrenic), would actually come back and at some point and try to clarify just what, exactly, he/she was attempting to communicate.