Bowing down to the American flag

[LiberalUprising]

http://www.wacotrib.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2005/10/09/20051009wacflowers10.html

“There is an ultimate truth of God, I do believe. No person, no nation and no institution, however, can claim to possess it without becoming idolatrous.”

To me the ubiquitous debates about the sanctity of the Pledge of Allegiance reflect a form of idolatry. Unless the Decalogue has been recently revised, idolatry is one of the biggest Judeo-Christian no-nos.

Yet, not only has the pledge become sacrosanct to many, along the line it also has become a way of enforcing religious dogma. ...

...So it baffles me why some Christians think that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance poses no conflict to their faith. I quit saying it in the late 1980's. On a good day, I fail miserably in living out my faith. Why on earth would I claim my allegiance to a kingdom other than the realm of God presented by Jesus? The answer for me is clear: I don't.

It's time that Christians abandon blind allegiances to the dominant, cultural expressions of religion simply because they sound correct, noble, or even American. As Spong reminds us, no nation or institution can claim to possess God's ultimate truth without being idolatrous. If it is to be retained, let the pledge be an optional only part of the public school forum. School districts should not force all students to recite it as part of a daily ritual. To claim that this is the right and only way to implement the pledge is not Christian. It is idolatry.

Robert Kenji Flowers of Waco is a United Methodist minister.

http://www.wacotrib.com/opin/content/news/opinion/stories/2005/10/09/20051009wacflowers10.html

[supernova]

1. Amen, Rev Flowers

:applause:

I agree with everything he said.

And I will extend that to say that no one group of people has a lock on God's truth either. The simple fact of so many denoms is but a tiny example. As I get older, I find I'm less willing to put up with being expected to follow one path only.

And I will add that even when I do recite the Pledge, it's without the recent "Under God" that Eisenhower added. I do the original, which is just a simple pledge to country.

[RevCheesehead]

2. Yup.

:thumbsup:

Never liked the pledge. Refuse to say it now. I might stand up, and if I'm under close scrutiny, I might mouth the words. But sorry, America - my allegiance is with God. And quite frankly, lately that has taken me in direct conflict with my country. :evilfrown:

[AirmensMom]

3. Well said, RevCheesehead.

I've been scratching my head about this for a while.

[realisticphish]

4. I do not say the pledge

i am respectful, but i just don't say it. i don't like it, i think its jingoistic and, as you said, idolitry. and, frankly, i don't much like the whole "hand over heart" thing. i just fold my hands in front of me

[I_Make_Mistakes]

5. I actually remember reading somewhere that swearing (during

the time of the Gospels writing meant, swearing an oath to something other than GOD), I too protest the pledge under the same assumption, I will swear an allegiance to no one but the LORD.

It is weird, that the ones who are faithful to the Gospels are the same who have a problem with the pledge.

You know, they can call me unpatriotic and unAmerican (I am 1/16th Native American), but they are the true UNAMERICANS and UNCHRISTENS.

[RevCheesehead]

6. From Matthew 5:33-37

Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "you shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord." But I say to you, do not swear at all , either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.


So, how do the fundies reconcile this? :evilgrin:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

7. Rev you are the man/woman? I don't know. But I know that when

I understood the meaning of swear from the days and the way it is used today, it did not line up.

They use the swear as curse word or profanity, so you can swear allegiance to anything or one, but don't say shit1

I remember having a talk with my Pastor about the Biblical rewrites. She used the ex. that in one verse, an ass was given as a gift so it was changed to donkey. She said "Could you imagine in todays vernacular, he was given an ass!".

[RevCheesehead]

8. Ain't nothin in the Bible about cussing.

Except for the big GD, which is taking God's name in vain. Of course, that would include the casual use of "Oh, God," and "Jesus Christ!" as an expletive.

Too many fundies are stuck in the Good King Jimmy. It's like reading Shakespeare - you gotta look up words to understand what the hell they're talking about.

Oh, and yeah - I'm da woman. :)

On edit: It's also ironic that there is a LOT in the Bible about gossiping and falsely accusing others. I have not yet heard Jerry Falwell admit he was wrong about the Clintons and Vince Foster.

And that gossip thing? Go to any church potluck dinner, and tell me if you can avoid it.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

9. Well Rev, there is a difference between gossip and truth telling,

right? Sometimes, you gotta relate the truth and it could seem like gossip. The fundies think you should never say a bad word about anyone, even if they are really a bad person (because honestly, most of them here are bad people).

[RevCheesehead]

10. Of course.

They're two separate things.

Truth-telling is something done face-to-face. Matthew 18 outlines the procedure on how to deal with someone who has "sinned against you."

Gossip, on the other hand, is malicious in intent, where someone takes delight in smearing another person - when the person is not there to defend him/herself. Chances are, if you're enjoying it too much, it's gossip.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

11. If I ever get to WI, I would really like to meet you. You are so real

the kind of Pastor people need to get to know. Mine are cool too, but in a church way, not a message board way. If you get to NJ soon, look me up. I am either moving to FL or NOLA, it's in HIS hands now!

And do check out Albright College (I was a DU Drexel Univ., student, so I kinda knock AC, but from an angry transfer student intimate way).

FYI, the Religion classes I took, were OT and non-Western Religions, mom, took some Women's religion class, we both enjoyed them immensely. That is from, two at the time, non-religious people.
Like I said, it is a great school.

[RevCheesehead]

12. LOL. Thanks!

I'm not quite as "open" IRL as I am on DU (who is?). But yes, I try to teach people to lighten up, to laugh and enjoy life. That's why Jesus said "I came so that you may have life, and have it abundantly." O8)

[I_Make_Mistakes]

13. But you bring the MESSAGE through loud and clear.! That is the point.

May God send sunshine to warm your smile amidst the devastation wrecked from the free will choices made by us which brings the cold winds amongst us. Please stay here and comfort us, as we walk in this perilous world.

[RevCheesehead]

14. Thank you so much for these kind words.

I've had a rough couple of weeks, and have had some serious doubts about my call to ministry. Sometimes I feel like I'm only spinning my wheels, accomplishing nothing at all.

Your post was like a breath of fresh air. :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Being a minister is like being a teacher

because you never know what effect you are going to have on people. You may have profound effects and never know it.

Two of the preachers who had the greatest effect on me undoubtedly never knew it.

One was an evangelist who came to our campus when I was a confused and conflicted student. He gave a stirring sermon about turning one's problems over to God. I didn't go up in the altar call, but that night, I wrote out a long, heartfelt prayer about everything that I was going around in circles about and then sent it down the incinerator chute (kind of a Tibetan approach to prayer). By that time the following year, all the things I was in turmoil about had resolved themselves in unexpected and wonderful ways (not that I didn't get new problems to replace them...)

The second was an interim priest in a former parish. He gave a sermon about forgiveness that really made it all clear in the memorable phrase, "Stop trying to have a better past." So simple, and yet so profound. It changed my whole approach to conflict.

So you never know--after one of your sermons or counseling sessions, some parishioner of yours may have gone home thinking, "Oh, wow," but you'll never know it.

[RevCheesehead]

18. Thanks, Lydia.

:hug:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. The problem with being a Pastor, is you don't see the ripples you

send out. You have created a Tsunami between, the believers and not. those looking for refuse with your posts. People are ignorant and expect Pastor's to be more Godly than the rest of US! You are surely more educated in the Holy Realm, but not necessarily more HOLY right? (That is another fallacy perpetrated by our media).

You were, I believe called by GD (your term), but let men (mortals), lead you to question? It is a narrow path, if you chose to climb, but even Thomas, who knew the Lord in the Flesh doubted, so, why would you feel any doubt would be less than righteous!

Keep on, keep on!! We don't need a self righteous, RW, who has no doubts like Thomas did on this board!

[RevCheesehead]

19. LOL.

So true - I seriously doubt whether Falwell or Robertson spend much time doubting what they do. Arrogance is the offshoot of pride, and that's one of the 7 deadlies, isn't it? :)

[BlackVelvet04]

20. I think taking the Lord's name in vain

means something entirely different. Claiming to be a person of God or a Christian but living in direct opposition to that is taking the Lord's name in vain in my opinion.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

21. BV I see what you are saying. I believe that the actions you are

describing are blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (the only unforgivable sin). We both take a step back and look not only at words written, but actions and meanings.

When people are living high and mighty and say it is God's will, I ask them to re exam the deaths of the Apostles and Disciples, anything but good!

[bmbmd]

16. I don't mind pledging allegiance to the flag

or to the republic for which it stands. I have pledged allegiance to my wife, to my kids, to my patients, to the Democratic party, and yes, to the Dallas Cowboys and the Texas Tech Red Raiders. But, my heart, my life, my all-I pledge to Jesus. That is the relationship which supercedes all others.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. I stopped saying the pledge a while ago, and also no longer sing the

national anthem.

One cannot pledge allegiance to the flag and remain faithful to God.

And I just can't bring myself to sing the national anthem for a similar (though far more ambiguous, tenuous, and not fully thought-out) reason.

It's either the flag or God - not both.

Also why I think flags in a sanctuary are blasphemous. The flag in a sanctuary nullifies everything that is said and done in that sanctuary, UNLESS it's there for a specific reason - such as, the Sunday after 9-11, my church in NYC brought the flag into the sanctuary for that one day. That seemed to make sense. But then it was promptly removed.