Going to church

[realisticphish]

I have gotten flak from several family members for commenting that I don't think church is necessary. I'm a christian, don't get me wrong, but I feel that church isn't necessary to be a "good christian" (define that whatever way you want). I've asked other christians i know what they think, and a large number of them say that if i don't want to go to church, then i'm really not christian.

I, on the other hand, think that I would rather make my own decisions about theology (by asking questions of my pastor on an individual basis, etc.) than hear what the pastor thinks in his/her sermon. I still go to church on occasion, on holidays, because i really do like the pastor, but I just prefer reading the gospels, and deciding for myself.

What do you all think?

*just to be clear, i'm not saying that people who go to church are stupid or anything, but that it's not right for ME

[I_Make_Mistakes]

1. I believe that if you are going to the correct church, it renews your

spirit. It is a difficult world in which we live, and church (members who have the same values can bring you up and fill you with the goodness you seek).

To me, church can be a refuge from all the bad things going on. The key is to find a HOUSE (church) that will nurture you!

[realisticphish]

2. i see what you mean

and, really, that is why i still go to church on occasion, because i truly like the pastor and congregation. Maybe i'm just more of a loner in terms of belief, and emotion

or, maybe you're right, and i just need to find a new congregation

[RevCheesehead]

3. Almost everyone goes through moments of seeking.

Even I had moments where I dropped out for a while, or just took jobs playing the organ, but I wasn't emotionally invested in what was going on around me.

Now that I understand myself better, I see where church helps me to form a community of support around me. But it has to be the right kind of church. I'm very particular about what kind of worship "feels" right to me. It's not style, so much as it is a feeling of authenticity to worship. You can tell the difference between worship and performance.


Edit/ Damn, it's nice to see ya, Phish! I've missed you. :)

[realisticphish]

4. Thanks Rev

nice to be missed:)
I've only recently gotten back into DU, what with summer vacation and work. Plus, every time i go to the lounge or GD, i see more and more conflict, hatred, and intolerance. But I still like it in here:)

But, as to worship, I think that part of the problem is that I'm mobile. At home, I'm working all the time, and don't feel the connection to the parish, and at school I'm studying, working, and am in an area that doesn't have a true Lutheran parish (just a chapel). I have been considering trying out the UU church.

But they meet at 8am. I mean, c'mon, I'm in COLLEGE ;)

[RevCheesehead]

5. Too early.

At last year's Easter Sunrise service, I told them that chances are, Jesus rose late the previous evening, since it's way too early, even for God to be awake. :evilgrin:

[realisticphish]

6. hey

the guy runs the freakin universe...probly needs his beauty sleep

[I_Make_Mistakes]

7. Hey phish, I'm ELCA, but there are other good churches. I used

to spend a lot more time on beliefnet (before I got a little addicted to DU). The ELCA'ers on bnet are quick to point out the more Christian/Christ following churches. It emboldened me to be more vocal.

I also believe you do not have to attend Church to be a good Christian (God knows, there are a lot of false teachers out there).

My point was that if you find the correct place, you will have your chalice filled whenever you attend. I actually, probably mental, feel when drinking the cheaper red wine burn on the way down on Sun. a renewal that is spiritual.

Rev. Cheese, as a Lutheran it it important to many of us to have Communion weekly, but UMC is a very Christian following house. You know that, but phish maybe doesn't!

[realisticphish]

8. I've checked out UMC before

It's ok, but doesn't quite fit. I dunno, i'll keep looking

[JVS]

9. Healthy without drinking water, a good student without going to class

Possible but risky. You can eat watery enough foods to keep hydrated, and if you read enough you can keep up with a class without attending lecture. As far as a Christian not going to church, this is similar. Church is not necesary, but the fundamental teaching of the church (i.e Christ crucified) is essential.

IIRC, you have stated elsewhere that you are a Lutheran (ELCA to be specific), as a fellow Lutheran I feel obligated to point out several aspects of our faith that may have bearing on your decision on whether to go to church.

In the Small Catechism we interpret the commandment to keep the sabbath as "We should fear and love God that we may not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred, and gladly hear and learn it." Nowhere does it say that you must go to a church on Sunday. In fact, neither of my pastors have given me any guff about the fact that I almost never show up on Sunday, but rather on Wednesday night. As far as they are concerned the proper administration of the sacraments and preaching of the word (the primary function of ministry) can (and should) be accomplished at any time whatsoever. However, we are supposed to gladly hear God's word and hear it preached. In this era it is possible to get preaching without actually going into a physical structure. Sermons are available online, theological texts can be read, compared, agreed with or rejected. One can be very well "churched" from the comfort of a desk. Of course communion doesn't happen at home, so you can't get that without the church.




Article V of the Augsburg Confession states:
"1] That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2] the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3] the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ's sake.

4] They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works."

There is no obligation on our part to attend services, but rather services are an opportunity to hear the word and receive the sacraments (communion and declaration of absolution). The reason that this opportunity is important is that they are the means through which God produces the faith that is necessary for salvation. Remember that the Lutheran church teaches single (or weak) predestination, that is while our wills are capable of rejecting grace, we have no power to choose faith, which is only bestowed upon us by God through the word and sacraments. Although we cannot choose to be faithful the choice to be unfaithful is within our power and such a choice can result in a loss of salvation. Therefore, although not going to church isn't going to send you to hell, you are denying yourself contact with what is very salubrious to the soul. It is better to go.

Finally, I'd like to comment briefly on the role of pastors. The duty of the pastor is to tend his flock and look out for the well-being of their souls. Their role is to teach, to advise, to hear confession, to proclaim forgiveness, and to give you the very blood and body of Christ. You say that you like your pastor, so why don't you make it easier for him/her to do his/her job by cooperating in the arrangement. He/she has taken on a responsibility to serve you in this manner, why not be gracious and accept the gift?


Happy Reformation Day! 10/31/1517!

[realisticphish]

10. Well, for one,

the pastor I like is 2 hours away. And the communion thing DOES bother me, and is why I go to church when I do. I guess what it comes down to is a disgust with how some churches politicize, etc. Of course, finding the right church would fix that, but i haven't found any good ELCA churches within a busride of where I live.

I don't know. I'll keep an eye out, especially once i get a permenant residence, and can really become part of a congregation. Thanks for your input!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

13. Hey, forgot to mention. We the ELCA are in full communion with

the Presbyterians and Episcopalians. That means we have agreements stating that communion (our most cherished sacrament) between the churches has been agreed upon tht make it equal in terms of belief.

I know that the Presbyterians and Episcopalians have the same type of situation as ELCA, LCMS and WELS so I am not sure which groups (I want to say ECUSA and PCUSA) but I am not sure.

I think I even read that pastors can be shared between us, should any need arise.

If you want to persue this I am sure the information is on ELCA.org

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. You are also in full communion with the RCA and the UCC

Reformed Church of America and the United Church of Christ.

[JVS]

21. I was never happy with the joint communion with the Presbyterians and UCC

They really view communion differently from the ELCA or ECUSA

[MemphisTiger]

11. I think if you are going to the right church, you'll want to go

This is a pretty popular problem facing christians. Many are going to a church because it's convenienet, but others don't feel that sense of community with the congregation or connection with the pastor. I would try a few different ones out if I were you. Good luck.

[shrike]

12. Some of the Christian people I know don't go to church

Some are incredibly Christian (in their actions) without even being religious.

That said, I agree with others on the board that a church in which you feel comfortable is helpful. For me, it's sort of like all week long I tread water. But on Sundays I get to relax and touch the bottom.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

14. I love that analogy, a respite from the wickedness. I wish that I had

that way with words. I hope I interpreted that the right way. You can sink and rest for the rest of the week.

[shrike]

15. Yes, that is what I mean

A shelter from the storm, as Dylan once put it. It gives me what I need to go on.

[Rabrrrrrr]

16. Part of being a Christian is being called into a community -

that's the first step, the calling of Jesus to you to form the community of two, and then the calling into the greater community.

"Going to church" isn't about hearing what the pastor has to say (though that's part, obviously) - the reason to "go to church" (and by that, you really mean "go worship") is to go worship God in and as part of your community, in a way that you cannot worship God on your own.

Worship is the primary function of Christians (also Jews and Muslims) - to give God praise and thanks for what he/she has done for you and for the world; and also to be together in community singing hymns, hearing the Scriptures, and, if you're lucky, hearing a good sermon.

It's not about having to agree with the sermon - I kind of like the sermons I don't agree with, because they challenge me to actually think and consider WHY I disagreed with it. Ones I agree with are easy, and teach me little.

Though if I were in a church in which I disagreed with the majority of sermons, I'd be thinking I was in the wrong place.

I truly do think that community is essential for a Christian. Even the desert fathers, and the current day monks and nuns, are cloistered and separated from the world, but they do it together with others.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Personally, I prefer a church with a liturgy, and I was talking about this

with my mother, and she said, "That's because with a liturgy, even if the sermon is no good, you still get something out of the communal experience."

Makes sense.

[RevCheesehead]

19. Yup.

I'd hate to hang everything on what I say on Sunday morning. In all reality, I don't think it's that important. Many people get the gospel message through our prayers and hymns, too.

(I once got one of my classmates pissed at me because I dared to say - in WORSHIP class - that most people really don't listen to sermons. The professor just smiled.)

[elshiva]

20. LOL! The liturgy is so important to me, too.