A question, if I may

[okasha]

Is a progressive pagan eligible for this group? I have a mixed background in Native American traditional religion, a Catholic education, the Episcopal Church and modern neo-paganism. I respect and enjoy discussing various theologies and am particularly interested in the historical aspects of both Old and New Testaments. Ordinarily, it would seem that the place for these topics would be R/T, but it also seems that it's quite impossible to have any such discussion there.

[RevCheesehead]

1. Of course you're welcome!

You're a progressive/liberal, right?
And a person of faith?
Then by all means, this group is for you!

If you've read through our mission statement, you'll see that we wanted a place to discuss our faith, free from challenges and criticism. In our discussions here, we actually read what others write, consider their thoughts and opinions, and offer our own.

Your background sounds fascinating. I hope you'll feel comfortable in sharing some of your experiences with us! :hi:

[okasha]

11. Thanks for the lovely welcome, everyone.

I've been reading some older threads and getting a feel for this forum, and I think I'm going to like it here. A lot.:yourock:

As for R/T, there are a couple more posts I want to make to tie up loose ends, then I'm outta there. Just like Rabbi Jesus said, beat the dust off my Timberlands and walk away. I learned a take-no-prisoners debate style from Ursuline nuns and Marist brothers, and I'm no shrinking violet, but the hate level in there has gotten way, way too high. Best be gone.

[realisticphish]

36. agreed

i love debating religion with my friends. but we respect each other, and actually listen to each other

[realisticphish]

2. you're very welcome!

we are people of faith, bottom line. We've had some interesting discussions on theology and biblical history, so you're very welcome

:hi:

[Critters2]

3. I haven't been here long enough to say "yay" or "nay" re: welcoming you

but I'm glad to see someone with an interesting background.

I just spent a little time in R/T, and don't think I'll venture there again. What an unpleasant place.
Over there, I'm treated like a fundie. In real life, I'm "the pastor of the gay church" (you have to say that with a sneer, and pull your children away from me, to get the inflection right). Can't win for losing.

So, as much as I can welcome you, "Welcome!"

Critters
pastor of the gay church, I'm told :hi:

[realisticphish]

4. The Gay Church

"We believe in one holy catholic, apastolic, and gay church"

:D

[Critters2]

5. Yep, that's us

to hear the locals tell it.

I've been called worse....just today, in Religion/Theology!

[RevCheesehead]

6. You shoulda been in the Lounge this morning.

Did you know atheists come in fundy flavoring, too? :eyes:

[Critters2]

7. Oh, yes

I was once married to a UU. He was a Universalist Christian--it wasn't our difference in faith that caused us to go our separate ways. But he had some UU friends who had been raised fundie Christians. They were just as rigid and intolerant as the churches they had left. Definite fundies!

I take it you're in Wisconsin? I have family in West Bend.

[RevCheesehead]

9. So do I!

Any named Vandenberg?

[Critters2]

13. No

More German-ish sounding than that. Why do you have relatives in WB?

[RevCheesehead]

14. My mom's extended family.

Cousins, second cousins, etc. They all seem to be centered there.

[Critters2]

17. Wow, cool My folks moved there while I was in seminary

but I found them :) My dad worked for the Gehl Company.

They've been there 20 years now. Do the math. I'm old.

My mom died last summer, and my dad's sister and cousins have been trying to get him to move to Florida with them, but he likes it in West Bend.

[RevCheesehead]

23. What state are you in now?

And, what seminary did you attend? Just curious.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. I'm guessing mycritters went to Eden or Andover-Newton.

Maybe.... just maybe... Princeton Divinity.

[Critters2]

28. Andover Newton, how'd ya know

Two of my former profs are now at Princeton. Andover Newton breaks 'em in, then Harvard or Princeton steal 'em. A longstanding tradition!

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. The way that you write and speak.

It just seems "Andover-Newton"-ish.

Did you study with Gabe Fackre?

[Critters2]

33. Yeah, well,

mostly I argued with Gabe Fackre. I still get his Christmas letters!

[Rabrrrrrr]

35. He's a good guy to argue with!

Always so pleasant. And I've never not learned a lot from any discussion with Gabe, whether I was going against him or with him. Wonderufl theologian and an incredible teacher: patient and challenging, never mean or dismissive.

[Critters2]

38. Where have you met Gabe?

I haven't actually talked to him in years. I went to Craigville a couple of times once I got out of school, but not in a long time.

I stayed in touch with Max Stackhouse and Mark Heim more.

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. I'm a lifelong UCCer, so I've encountered him a number of times

of the years.

[Critters2]

40. He's a good guy

even if he did say my Christology was "low to the point of non-existence". He'd be pleased to know that it's higher now. We also had a disagreement about eschatology, though I don't remember the details--probably something about me not having one.

[Critters2]

42. Which conference are you in?

Clergy or lay?

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. I'm just an active, but unofficial, theologian dude in the UCC

in an undisclosed location.

I grew up in WI, though - nice theologically strong but still progressive conference there. I've lived in a number of areas around the country, and been involved in a UCC church (or churches) in all of them, and I"ve yet to come across as a Conference as theologically and administratively strong, efficient, and well-put-together as WI.

Though some of the surrounding ones also do well in the midwest - MI is strong, OH seems to be pretty strong, IL north perhaps.

[Critters2]

46. I'm having trouble getting a feel for Illinois

mostly because, after Iowa, it seems huge to me. I really liked the Iowa Conference. Good collegiality, and the Church and Ministry Committees were topnotch. A real sense of discipline and cameraderie. I knew who to turn to for what. I would have dispersed staff, but other than that, a good conference. I hear good things about Wisconsin, though there was some real unpleasantness in the West Bend church that I think could have been avoided with some input by the Association. I'm just a distant observer, tho. I've only served in Iowa and Illinois.

[Critters2]

47. The beagle is crossing her legs, so I gotta go

Good talking with you all!!

'Night!

[Critters2]

27. Illinois, after several years in my native Iowa

Attended Andover Newton Theological School in Boston.

You?

[RevCheesehead]

30. Well, the WI part you already know.

I went to Duke. (UMethodist seminary is a part of the campus)

[Critters2]

32. Good school

Lousy lacrosse program :)


Isn't Hauerwas there?

[RevCheesehead]

34. God, yes!

Had him for Ethics. Half the class was pissed off because he cussed in class. But when my brother was there, he used to launch the "GD" bomb fairly regularly. They say his new wife helped "mellow" him. But he still wears jeans and outrageously ugly ties.

[Critters2]

37. Gee, I had several profs who cussed in class,

well, not several, maybe, but some.

Head of our ethics dept was Max Stackhouse, who, today, would be a neo-con, I think. Interesting guy. We rarely agreed about much, but were close personally. But, suit and ties all the way.

Our interesting profs were in Hebrew Bible. Carol Fontaine and Bill Holliday. Both eccentric in their own way. But great scholars and teachers.

The beagle wants to take a walk. I am her servant, or so she tells me.

So, another time!

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. Stackhouse often pisses me off.

Especially his anti-gay stance.

But sometimes I find myself totally in agreement, and often in awe at his breadth of knowledge and ability to assimilate holistically a broad range of topics.

And his economic ethics are, in my opinion, topnotch.

Overall, though, I put him in the "windbag" category.

[Critters2]

45. That's Max

I like him personally. Really. I had a bout of depression in seminary, and Max was amazingly pastoral!! A great help! Smart as a whip, too.

I've heard all his arguments about the gay stuff, though, and I can't help but feel he's just rationalizing his gut feelings--which he would consider a cardinal sin in any intellectual discussion.

He comes off as pompous (I've even told him this), thus your feeling that he's a windbag! Still, his course on Troeltsch was great. And I learned what he taught! Whenever I make any decision, I ask myself "Is it good? Is it right? Is it just?" Not a huge help when choosing a donut, but otherwise, words to live by!

[Critters2]

15. What species of "Rev" are you?

I'm UCC myself.

[RevCheesehead]

16. United Methodist.

Our church is still working on it's gay issues. But around here, we're considered fairly liberal.

[Critters2]

18. Yeah, the UMC's position on glbt issues is surprising to me

I know the denomination's official position, but I don't know a single UMC individual who agrees with it. Odd.

[RevCheesehead]

22. The problem is with the conservative south,

where the chuch mimics Baptists, and many are less than open-minded. Also, there's a strong conservative movement that plays to people's fears, and then constantly threatens to leave the church, or split, or something. I wish they'd just go away.

[Critters2]

26. That's the beauty of the UCC

When they say "We're leaving", we can say "Don't let the screen door hit ya on the way out". EAch congregation owns its own property, so there's nothing to keep conservatives from leaving. It's interesting how often they threaten, but don't leave when given the opportunity. There has been attrition since General Synod passed the Marriage Equality Resolution last summer, but we've gained two mega-churches, Cathedral of Hope in Dallas and another one in Georgia, that joined the denomination specifically because of our stand on glbt issues. That's made up for any loss in members. And some churches, like mine, have begun growing since we became open and affirming.

And we've never been strong in the South. Our German side was just getting here at the time of the Civil War, and stayed North to live in peace, mostly. The Congregationalists--our largest segment--was vehemently abolitionist, so never got a foothold in the South. So, we don't have a Southern conservative wing. Our Hungarian ethnic churches and parts of Pennsylvania are the conservative strongholds, though I really don't know why.

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. And the Calvin Synod, the BWF (what a joke they are!) and the new group

the "Faithful and Welcoming" (I think that's what the thinly-veiled homophobe but-not-as-hateful-and-illiterate-as-the-BWF reactionary group call themselves) movement, in terms of conservative part of the UCC goes.

And it is exciting that, while we are losing some churches (and mostly churches that haven't given to OCWM for years anyway, so fuck 'em), we are picking up shitloads of churches.

[Critters2]

48. Calvin Synod just pisses me off!!

They were supposed to encourage their churches to assimilate into geographical conferences. The CS shouldn't even be in existence 50 years after the merger!! Talk about a breach of covenant!

"Faithful and Welcoming" is interesting, too. "We hate gays, just not as much as those other guys". Please.

Our church is growing, and it's really because of the ONA stuff. And no, all of our new members aren't gay. Of the 13 new members we've taken in this year, 5 are lesbian. No gay men, which I find interesting. The others just find our stance refreshing.

[Critters2]

49. I'm off to walk the beagle

Nice to meet you! Later!

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. As long as you don't call people of faith shitwads, fuckbrains, or idiots,

you are welcome.

Anyone who wants a legitimate discussion on issues of faith is totally welcome here, whatever olne's background.

But people who merely want to belittle, name-call, and insult belong in religion/theology.

Certainly doesn't sound like you are the latter at all, so welcome aboard!

[RevCheesehead]

10. Be honored.

Not everyone gets the Rabrrrrrr (TM) seal of approval. :)

[okasha]

12. I am!

And this time I think I even clicked on the right reply button. (Over 500 posts, and I still haven't quite got the hang of it.)

[Critters2]

19. So shitwads is out, huh?

Well, okay, but that sure limits my vocab

Critters
quite the little smartass tonight

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. Fucknuts is still "in", though

So you aren't terribly limited. :P

[Critters2]

21. Yep, my new favorite word. n/t

[okasha]

24. How about fuckwads and shitbrains?

[Critters2]

29. Flexibility

I like that!

[Critters2]

50. I just got attacked on R/T again

I've placed some people in ignore, and won't go back there. But I must admit I don't understand people who hate religious expression flocking to a RELIGION discussion.

:wtf:

[RevCheesehead]

51. I refuse to go there.

It's bad enough, getting attacked in GD. But the R/T forum seems to be flooded with people who claim no belief in God. The obvious question, which has yet to be answered satisfactorally, is "why do you care what religious people think, if you don't believe in God?"

(and the claim about "all the harm done in the name of religion" doesn't wash. There's plenty of harm done in the name of other things, too.)

Here's a :hug: which may or may not help. :)

[Critters2]

52. Thanks!

I too easily get sucked into arguments anyway, but they're just vicious over there.

Besides, I've got sermon work to do.

Thanks again!

[Rabrrrrrr]

53. And I'm curious why we need 75 threads about how atheists at DU

are constantly under attack.

:shrug:

[RevCheesehead]

54. Hey, Rabrrrrrr -

There's a tribute thread to you in the Lounge!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5178297


:evilgrin: