This thing about Haggard

[StoryTeller]

Can I just vent a bit here? I don't know if the guy is guilty or not--if he was, I'm afraid it wouldn't surprise my anymore. But I have really mixed feelings about it.

The thing is, even though I'm progressive, liberal, whatever...my upbringing, my family, my circle of friends are all from the pretty conservative, evangelical community. And the crap this community has produced is embarrassing to me and makes me angry because it's so far from what I believe following Jesus is all about. But it's still a community I care about.

There's good people in this community. And not all evangelicals are right-wing fanatics. If Haggard is guilty, it's going to be a huge blow to a lot of people. I even have friends who attend his church. This is going to seriously ruin a lot of lives and could even shipwreck the faith of a lot of people.

And yet, I know that the only way that the evangelical community can even hope to clean up its act is if the corruption is brought to light and exposed. People have got to stop making church leaders into demi-gods. They've got to stop equating their politics with their faith, and we need to start actually following Jesus' teachings for real, no matter what.

So if the only way for this to happen is for my faith community to be broken and humbled, I hope and pray it happens sooner rather than later. But it is a very painful prospect, and my heart just breaks thinking about those who will get hurt in the process.

I don't know exactly why I'm rambling on about this--probably because I know you all won't jump on me for criticizing this faith community, and you won't jump on me for caring about them either.

I just ache for them--it didn't need to be this way. :(

[RevCheesehead]

1. Your post is exactly the reason why we created this group.

So you can have a safe place to vent your true feelings, without having to defend your faith.

I just got home, and saw something in LBN about it. The name is vaguely familiar, but I really don't know anything about him. What church is he at? And what denomination?

As to the post itself: I think the temptation of pride is HUGE for these people. And quite frankly (in my United Methodist prejudiced view), I think the problem is the emphasis on personal conversion. The problem, as John Wesley saw it, was that of backsliding. And that's the rub, because when the slide is gradual, you just don't notice it. And when you're the top dog, other people are less likely to confront you about it.

When a church's entire emphasis is on "winning souls for Christ," there's a problem. It's as if we think we've "arrived," and need no further scrutiny. Then the lure of politics drags us deeper into pride and arrogance. Jesus preached humbleness and gratitude, not power and politics of this world. He emphasized caring for the least among us, not condemning others who are different.

I wish the fundies would emphasize John 3:17 "For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."

I've worked with pastors (and their spouses) who are hard-core evangelicals, and sometimes they are truly, horribly ugly...saying things like "that person isn't really a Christian." I know I'm rambling here, but if I don't post right now, I'd probably avoid posting altogether.

God, keep me humble and save me from myself.

(and thanks for a very thoughtful post)

[StoryTeller]

3. Thank you, RevC...

:hug:

He's senior pastor at New Life Church in Co. Springs. It's got something like 14,000 people, and isn't affiliated with any denomination, I don't think. He's also president (or was until this afternoon) of the National Association of Evangelicals. He's never been as obnoxious as Dobson or Falwell, or even Joel Osteen (whom I find nauseating). But he's definitely in that world.

The church I used to attend is pretty buddy-buddy with New Life, and that staff attended a lot of their conferences and the pastors pal'd around together. So our church tended to mimic New Life in some areas and attitudes--as well as mimicing a lot of the other major megachurches. One of the many reasons we finally found a new church, even though I'd grown up at that one. We just couldn't stand it anymore.

When a church's entire emphasis is on "winning souls for Christ," there's a problem. It's as if we think we've "arrived," and need no further scrutiny. Then the lure of politics drags us deeper into pride and arrogance. Jesus preached humbleness and gratitude, not power and politics of this world. He emphasized caring for the least among us, not condemning others who are different.

This is SO right on. And I appreciate the sentiment about staying humble. I feel the same way. I don't have any room to judge, because I've been guilty of some of the same attitudes in the past. :blush:

Thank you for understanding and empathizing. :hug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. The whole rightwing evangelical reagan-worshiping fake Chistian movement

needs to be taken down.

Yes, there are indeed very good people who are conservative and evangelical and pentecostal and charismatic; but the legitimately Christian part of those movements has been subsumed by some (or, more rightly, a huge amount of) very clever charlatans who saw the opportunity for power in the (I have to be honest) non-critical, uneducated masses of ungodly-stupid-and-ignorance-embracing-but-well-intentioned Christians.

[StoryTeller]

4. I see it as...

...a very painful way to free a lot of these well-meaning people. It's like they won't wake up and look at what's really going on until it gets so ugly that they can't ignore it anymore.

Opportunity for power...yes, you're right about that. It seems that's always been a huge temptation for Christianity.

Sometimes I just want to scream to the whole world, "I'M SO VERY VERY VERY SORRY!!! FOR EVERYTHING SICK AND AWFUL THAT WE'VE DONE IN JESUS' NAME!" Just thinking about it makes my eyes tear up.

And I get angry and hope that horrible things happen to these people who have done this to my faith, and how Christ-like is that? I've got such a ways to go in following Jesus.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. The majority of evangelicals are not bad people, but many of them

are following false prophets, with harmful consequences not only for themselves but for the reputation of Christianity as a whole.

[Critters2]

6. I think it's more an issue of authority than anything else

These guys who start their own churches, are not part of any denomination, they answer to no one. And their churches are so built around them and their personality that they begin to believe their own PR, and there's no one there to temper that.

We have a new church here, worshiping in the middle school gym for now, and growing by leaps and bounds. I went to meet the pastor, and invite him to ministerial association. He told me that he had interviewed with one of the Baptist churches in town, but didn't get the call. But when he was here visiting for the interview, he came to like the town. When he didn't get the call, he decided to move here anyway, and start his own church (his words: "my own church", as opposed, I thought, to God's church). His church is affiliated with no denomination, and he's lost his standing with his Baptist denom, because they see this as inappropriate (good for them!). So, he's a loose cannon, under no authority but his own. I see trouble on the horizon.

Istm, a church is a group of people who come together, form a congregation and then call a pastor to lead them. This notion of guys starting churches on their own, answering to no denomination or judicatory, well, it doesn't surprise me when things like this happen.

Me, I'm happy being pretty much a nobody on the world stage, but serving a bunch of folks struggling to serve God, with the association hovering always in the background, ready to call me up short should I do something wrong. Not to mention the ever watchful eye of the Holy Spirit!

I like the idea that I don't answer to myself. I don't trust me all that much.

[StoryTeller]

7. This is a good point.

I used to attend an independent church. It was one that formed like you described at the end of your post--a group of people got together and then asked a pastor they respected to come serve. And in its early years, it was a really special place.

But the pastor who is there now is a "personality pastor"--albeit a local one at this point. Does commercials and everything. Even though I'd grown up there, my husband and I finally decided to leave because we saw and heard from the pastor himself that the church cared more about their reputation in the community than about following Jesus.

Ironically enough, this NAE is supposed to help keep independent churches from being loose cannons. So the way they're dealing with Haggard is the protocol they set up in order to maintain some aspect of accountability.

What irritates me about that, though, is that it's all MEN. They don't think it's right for a man to be accountable to a mere woman. But if the men are having so much problems honoring their marriage commitments and not living a double life, and if they're having so much problems being honest, then why put other men in charge of them? How is that helpful?

And there's this attitude with a lot of these churches that a pastor can't be held accountable by his own congregation, either. It's always got to be pastors from other mega churches. As if the "peasants" just aren't up to protecting, caring for, and shepherding the shepherd.

More and more, I'm feeling like the entire system is just irrevocably screwed up and irrepairable. I love my church, and it stays pretty clear of this sort of nonsense by being a small Vineyard church, but it's not infallible, either. But right now, I'm kinda feeling like it's about the last bit of anything resembling evangelicalism that I want to be a part of. I'm so tired of ALL of it.

[AspenRose]

8. I appreciate your post

I feel sorry for his wife and family....and yes, for the congregants.

And pastor Critters, you're right:

"These guys who start their own churches, are not part of any denomination, they answer to no one. And their churches are so built around them and their personality that they begin to believe their own PR, and there's no one there to temper that."

Calvary Chapel of Albuquerque immediately sprang to mind.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/mayweb-only/119-12.0.html

[Dob Bole]

9. Yeah, well look at this crap:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2931560&mesg_id=2931560

[54anickel]

10. Wow, I'm sort of surprised the thread hasn't been locked, it does seem

to break the DU rule as one poster pointed out. Also seems more like lounge material that GD|Politics. :shrug: