On Forgiveness (and Imus)

[RevCheesehead]

this was my response to a GD post (no, not that G.D.!), and I thought it could bring some lively, polite discussion to our group.

Can Imus be forgiven? Of course he can. But that depends on who is doing the forgiving. Even though I was offended at his remarks, they were not directed at me. I don't enter into the equation. Whether or not I choose to forgive him is irrelevant, as far as the bigger picture is concerned.

Forgiveness does not imply "wipe the slate clean," as if it never happened.
Forgiveness is actually something which is done by the wronged person(s)... and it is done so that they don't destroy their own lives. They in effect say, "I choose not to carry this anger with me."

Forgiveness rarely happens instantaneously. It takes time, intentional effort, patience, and even more time. It is, literally, "hard work."

Redemption, OTOH, is the work done by the sinner, to make right what they did or said. That's usually where restitution comes in. The question becomes "what can I do to make right, as best I can, what I did wrong?" Acceptance of the terms is again dependent on the person(s) injured. This is often called "Restorative Justice."

For Christians, we add a whole new dimension to the package, in believing that the Redemption has already been paid in full. But Jesus still insists that we practice forgiveness - even with our enemies.

So, for me - speaking as a Christian pastor - I can find it within my heart to forgive Mr. Imus. But I also fully expect that there are, and should be, consequences to his actions.

I think the ultimate question is one of Judgment...and that ain't my place.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. There can be no forgiveness without retribution.

Ooops - sorry. I was channeling James Cone (and sadly about 90 percent of DU, and probably 90 percent of the population in general) for a moment.

Thanks for your words, Rev! You are spot on correct - forgiveness is forgiveness only if it is given unconditionally. And everyone is entitled to forgiveness.

Though I have to say that, as easy it was for me to forgive the terrorists as I walked home on 9-11, I still cannot forgive Shrubbie for it. I try, but for now, I leave it to God. Hopefully someday I'll be ready.

I wish people would grow up and attempt to understand what forgiveness really is. Sadly, too many think of it as "When they ask forgiveness, and grovel, maybe get punished, then I'll forgive" or "I won't forgive, because I refuse to say to them that what they did was okay and that they should do it again". When, of course, the truth is that neither of scenarios is forgiveness.

[RevCheesehead]

3. Take, for example, the death penalty.

A murder victim's family is often heard saying "S/He deserves death for what they did." So, their wish is granted. After the execution, the family is interviewed, and they say "It wasn't enough. S/He had it too easy, and didn't suffer enough."

An eye for an eye is not a recipe for revenge. Instead, it is a LIMIT on how much retribution may be sought. If you poke out the eye of another, then they are entitled to poke your eye out.... but no more than that. If they cut off a limb, then you only get their limb. You do NOT get to demand their death for what they did to you.
(thank you Dr. Bailey, for the one thing you taught me that actually makes sense!)

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Imagine if all the assholes who say we're a Christian country actually lived it.

A nation in which no one is hungry, homeless, without health care, or in need. A nation of forgiveness and mercy, of second and third chances, and of grace and love.

The shitbags call it a Christian nation, them go kill people, let their neighbors starve, and crucify Jesus every selfish chance they get. Shitbags. Fucking scum. They really piss me off. Like putting "In God We Trust" on our money (which is hilariously heretical, by the way) is all we need to do. Or put the &*#$^ ten commandments in court houses. Where are the words of Jesus, you shitbags? You nazi fucking scum?

But I forgive them. :7

[RevCheesehead]

4. Oh, and about "finding it in your heart.."

I preached this on Maundy Thursday:

Jesus' command is simple. LOVE one another. Not the way you WANT to, but in the same way that I have loved you, you must love one another. And this love isn't limited to just the people you like. LOVE your neighbor. And who is your neighbor? Everyone....(insert examples here)

Jesus adds another dimension. He says, "You have heard it said 'Love your friends and hate your enemies.' But I say to you, 'LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, and PRAY for those who persecute you.'"

This isn't easy. If it were, it would be cheap grace. And grace isn't cheap - it's very, very costly. Jesus gave his life so that we would then have that grace given to us to be able to love our enemies. It's excruciatingly difficult, and against all our human instincts, to love someone who hates us. So what can we do?

"Lord, I'm supposed to love my enemy, but I just don't have it in me to do so. I'm hurt, deeply wounded, and I can't just 'let it go.'"

Welcome to the human race.
We are not natural forgivers. We have to work at it, and it takes time and effort. But if you don't have it in you, you aren't off the hook. If you find you cannot forgive, then you must pray for that grace to forgive be given to you. You have to ask God to let grace work in your life, so that you will be open, and eventually able to forgive.
THAT'S why grace is Amazing. And costly. And absolutely necessary, in order to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ. If you refuse to do it, then you are not his follower. But if you at least TRY, you will be rewarded for your efforts. And I will guarantee that God will make that possible in your life, as you allow the Love of Christ to take away all the hurt, pain, and anger.

You see, LOVE is not only the answer, it's a command.
Will you let Love triumph?

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. I had the privelege of preaching Maundy Thursday, too!

Here is, in part, what I said:

After all they had been through together, and all that Jesus had done, that’s what Jesus left them with as his final command: “Love one another”. And he says it three times just in this passage!

It’s funny how only Christians want then ten commandments in court houses and schools; and only some Christians, and that they aren't asking to put up the words of Jesus, like “Blessed are the poor” and “The meek shall inherit the earth” and “Turn the other cheek”; and especially this last command, “Love one another”.

Imagine that on the walls of courthouses and schools!

The Ten Commandments are, for the most part, easy: it’s easy not to kill, not to steal, not to commit adultery, maybe not so easy to keep the Sabbath holy: we’re pretty bad about that. But mostly the Ten Commandments are easy – but this command from Jesus: that’s difficult!

Which makes it even more worth doing.

Jesus said, “As I have loved you, love one another. They shall know you are my disciples by your love.”

So go, and do the same – offer moments of Easter resurrection to people, and not Good Friday betrayal and crucifixion; be the face of resurrection love.

I cut out a few paragraphs that embellished, but are not necessary, but that's it in a nutshell. I wish I had thought to include some of your "and with God's help, you can do it", but, hell, I can't think of everything.

Good sermon, Rev! That's one I'd say "Amen!" out loud to. Even in a Methodist church.

[nosillies]

2. That is beautifully written, very intelligent, and reflects a kind spirit

So because of all that, I'm sure it went over really well in GD

:sarcasm:

[RevCheesehead]

5. Heh-heh.

Most people passed right on by. There was one very positive response, but now (surprise, surprise) the thread is locked.

Thanks, amybhole. :hug: