OK, I bring this up with trepidation....

[boomboom]

How do y'all feel about Bible prophecy? Specifically, Revelations, the Rapture, etc. I know Revelations is the most difficult book, and we are not to predict the specific time....but, if you do understand even the basics of prophecy (that's me - not a scholar. Probably know enough to be dangerous), does anyone but me find these times to be rushing toward the end times? It's fascinating, exhilarating, frightening...for me, anyway, it sure clarifies my fear and almost revulsion of Condi. And clarifies how clueless this admin is of true Biblical knowledge. Unless the have an ulterior plan..............

[boomboom]

1. This is kinda what I was afraid of

I believe the Bible. I just wanted to hear y'alls argumennt. I promise I promise won't attack

[Frogtutor]

2. Try not to take the silence personally...

There's just not that much traffic in this group, especially lately. I'm really afraid that some of the Christian bashing at DU has run off some people; I hope not.

Anyway, I don't have enough knowledge of the Bible (none, really) to respond to your post. All I can say is that I prefer NOT to think about end times; it just makes me anxious and frightened, and feel helpless.

I just wanted to respond to your post so you would know someone's reading!

:hi:

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. Right

Most groups, as this one, have much more specialized areas of interest than the main forums, so they have fewer readers. Also, I think, only people with a donor star can post in groups. Just look at the length of threads in groups to get an idea; typically only a few topics have even one response in a single day. You really can't expect a lot of responses in groups. In a sense, it's a more intimate setting. Plus, my experience in trying to talk to progressives about Revelation etc. is that they either cover their ears, pretend you're not there and you're not talking to them, or run away screaming.

[pelagius]

3. I'm not responding yet, because a serious discussion...

...would take more time than I currently have.

I would like to make one comment, though -- the currently popular "end times" stuff being touted in the US is really an aberration from historical Christian understanding. The "rapturist" movement is around 100 years old and owes its existence to (a) the Scofield reference Bible and (b) Dallas Theological Seminary.

Google "Scofield" "Dallas Theological Seminary" and "Rapture" for details. Your first hit has a bit a Masonry thrown in, but there's some other interesting stuff.

[cally]

4. Biblical 'scholars' have predicted the end times

many times. Folks truly believed that they saw the prophecies. Sold their homes/farms and headed off to await the end times. Seems a bunch of hogwash to me--I'm sorry I'm so blunt. Read the Bible closely. Fake preachers will not know and fiction writers will not be able to tell us what is to happen. All I know is that we will not know so I refuse to worry about it.

[Kat45]

5. I am under the impression that a lot of the prophecy was

near-term in nature when it was written. That it speaks to the situation at the time and prophecied what would happen soon.

From my reading of the Bible (and admittedly I don't remember everything I've read), it seems like the idea of the rapture was drawn from a verse or two of the Bible. Much like a lot of the other fundie beliefs: take a verse or two that they like--out of context--magnify it, embellish on it, and turn it into something completely different.

[hvn_nbr_2]

6. A progressive view of Revelation

I studied Revelation intensely at one time and have a completely different view of it.

For one thing, it's not really a book of predictions and clearly says so itself. Something like "Write in a book the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things that must happen hereafter." That is, it's really about past, present, and future, from the point of view in time when it was written. It's not all predictions; in particular, all the stuff that's obviously about the Roman Empire is really about the Roman Empire, not some fantasy about a non-Roman non-empire revival as the European Common Market.

If you read it very carefully, particularly being careful not to read into it a lot of theology that isn't really there, you can see very interesting patterns. There are two scenes of heaven, one at the beginning of the story and one at the end.

The scene of heaven at the beginning shows a very primitive form of religion, with God sitting anthropomorphically on a throne in the sky, completely separated from people, surrounded only by a few "elders" and weird mythological beasts. He is worshipped by increasingly elaborate obseqious ritual, which He completely ignores. Only fearsome things like thunder and lightning come out of His throne. Then He sends out all sorts of destruction and shortage on humanity for no stated reason.

In the scene of heaven at the end, heaven is down on earth, God is spirit, everywhere, close to all His people, and He heals the nations instead of sending out destruction and provides a wealth of all good things for His people. The river of the water of life comes out of His throne instead of thunder and lightning.

But the change doesn't happen suddenly at some "end time." If you look closely, there are dozens of transitional images and bits during the rest of the story that show transitions from the first scene of heaven to the second scene. Also each section of the story describes a different kind of religion, as the forms of religion gradually evolve from the kind of religion in the first heaven to the kind of religion in the second heaven.

Overall, the story of Revelation is a story of how religion evolves from primitive, fundamentalist-like religion to more exalted, loving, mystical religion.

I could write a book about this, and in fact I intend to sometime.

[supernova]

9. This is the best summary

of Revelations I have ever seen. Thanks.

From my own POV, I've always thought it should be called "John's Sleep Deprivation and Isolation Diary" In some ways, it rivals the best drug literature.

I think you do have to be aware that from the POV of the time it was written, their world really was coming to an end. Jesus was dead, The Temple had fallen. Israel, Judea, as a state did not exist anymore, and would not again for another 18 Centuries. Sure sounds like the end of a world to me. And yes this is very much a political, real-world view, not an ethereal, theological one. This is because, I personally don't think you can separate the politics of the time of the Bible from the theology it purports. And this is not a bad thing.

But we continue on, different, in a changed form from before. We hope for the better. God is always with us and always among us. God is not a destroyer of worlds; we do that to ourselves. God is a bringer of worlds, of new ways of living and understanding together. And yes, it takes eons.

[hvn_nbr_2]

10. Wow

You said This is the best summary of Revelations I have ever seen. That surprises me because I've never found anyone who had any of these points of view of Revelation:
- that the two kinds of heaven really represent two very different kinds of religion
- that there are transitional images throughout the story showing transitions from the first to the second heaven
- that the change shown doesn't happen suddenly at some "end time" (Many people believe that generally but I never heard it stated as what Revelation says.)
- that the whole point of Revelation is about how religion evolves from primitive forms to advanced forms

If you've come to those conclusions on your own or are in a group that believes them, I'd love to compare notes. I thought I had my own unique view of Rev and haven't ever been able to get anyone to listen much.

You said their world really was coming to an end and I personally don't think you can separate the politics of the time of the Bible from the theology it purports.

Yes and yes. The book is very much a book for his time (and place too!) and yet it's a universal message too, as I'll get to in a moment.

Re: His time and place. It's actually a very Greek book, very much in the spirit of Greek religion and philosophy, filled with neat little riddles (most of which people don't even recognize as riddles) and invitations to imagine that you read what isn't there because you expect it to be there. Fundamentalists take his bait to see what they want to see all the time. (Fun aside: Google Croesus Lydia Delphi Persia to find the story of King Croessus hearing what he wanted to hear from a prophet.) John even stole the judgment day story from Plato (and adapted it), but no one notices that now. I once gave a talk, at a pagan convention, on Greek philosophy and religion in Revelation. I had a full room, and they stayed till the end. It seems more pagans are interested in a progressive view of Revelation than liberal Christians are. Liberal Christians in general just won't talk, read, hear, or think about Rev.

A very good example of his combining the politics of his time, his theology, and Greek riddle-making is the beast with seven heads and ten horns and the mortal wound that miraculously heals. This passage sounds like completely unintelligible drug-addled gibberish babbling, but you can look at it carefully and take it apart and discover that it's a masterfully crafted riddle that updates Daniel's prophecy to John's time, extends and universalizes it to be a message for all people of all times, and even transforms the nature of the prophecy at the same time. Having done that deciphering, you can read that passage that had been gibberish, and it reads smoothly and sensibly. But that's a much bigger discussion than I have time for now. If anyone expresses interest, I'll work on writing it up.

John also addresses first century church politics in a couple ways too, but that too is an issue for another time.

[tanyev]

8. Most traditional denominations do not accept

the "Left Behind" rapture theology. One of the best books I've ever read on the subject, and I've posted it before, is The Rapture Exposed, by Barbara Rossing, a Lutheran theologian.

The Rapture Exposed:
The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

By Barbara R. Rossing
Westview Press, Boulder, Colorado, 2004, Hardback, 212pp., $24.00

Review by G. Richard Wheatcroft

During the 19 th century a new theology was conceived called “premillinarian dispensationalism.” John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher, made a number of visits to the United States to promote what he called “dispensations,” that is, “intervals of time ordering God’s grand timetable for world events.”According to Darby, the Bible contains a schedule of events which will precede the end of history. The first event, coming before a millennium, will be the return of Jesus to ‘Rapture’ all true believers “out of the world into heaven.” Then, after seven years of global tribulation, Jesus will return a second time as a warrior to defeat the forces of evil at Armageddon and establish a reconstructed kingdom of Israel over which he will reign for a thousand years until the end of the world. Darby claimed that the foundation of the “dispensations” is Daniel 9:25-27, the Book of Revelation and other texts from the Hebrew and Christian Testaments.

Barbara Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, calls the ‘Rapture’ phenomenon a “destructive racket.” She writes that her book is for those who are concerned about the “simplistic” misinterpretation of the Biblical script by the “whole prophecy industry of Tim Le Haye, Hal Lindsey and others.” It is her conviction that dispensationalism must be challenged today “both because of its false theology and also because of its growing influence on public policy.” To counter this distortion and manipulation of Christian faith, she provides an interpretation of the Book of Revelation which provides “a vision of hope for God’s healing of the world.”
http://www.tcpc.org/resources/reviews/rapture_exposed.htm

If you are a Christian, I think you will find the book inspiring. If you are not a Christian, I think it is still very enlightening as it does a very good job of presenting what the Rapture Racketeers believe vs what mainline denominations believe.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. The Rapture idea came from the vision of a young girl

in Ireland, not from the Bible, and was promoted in the U.S. by Scofield et al (see post by Pelagius.)

An interesting take on Revelation can be found in Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper."

You can read the beginning of the book at Amazon, where Hahn describes how he, a Presbyterian minister who thought Catholics had it all wrong, came to attend a Mass and how that led to him becoming Catholic.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0385496591/ref=dp_proddesc_0/104-8364739-7215967?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=283155

Scroll down until you come to the text from the book. The full title is "The Lamb's Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth." Hahn shows how the Mass is Revelation and Revelation is the Mass. He soon learned that he wasn't the first to have noted this, but it's not widely understood among Catholics today. In short, Revelation isn't about the end of the world, it's about worship in Heaven and on Earth.

[RevCheesehead]

12. That makes sense.

I studied Christian ethics with Stanley Hauerwas (one of the top names in the country). In his course, I noticed the pattern of worship as he discussed the basic tenets of ethics. The way we experience worship shapes how we encounter the world around us. It seems reasonable to say that true worship crosses the threshold of the church door into the real world, where we worship without ceasing. (and isn't that phrase in Revelation somewhere??)

[hvn_nbr_2]

13. Worship without ceasing

I'm at work without my concordance but I think it says something like that in describing the four strange "living creatures" in the first scene of heaven at the beginning of the Revelation story, maybe also applies to the 24 elders. There's another similar phrase "pray without ceasing" which is, I think, in one of Paul's letters.

[Kat45]

14. Yes, "pray without ceasing" is in one of Paul's letters.

It's in 1 Thessalonians 16-18. "Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, render constant thanks. Such is God's will for you in Christ Jesus."

(That happens to be a Biblical verse that I really like.)

[CBHagman]

15. Interesting discussion and my two cents.

I remember back in the 1970s I had fellowship with a number of people who were inclined to believe in the end times. There were also Christian novels and films (yes, long before the "Left Behind" series) that dealt with the question of the Rapture, Antichrist, etc.

Even so, there was considerable disagreement about what exactly was going to happen and when. Most people emphasized that only God knew the timing of anything.

What really bothered me, then and now, was how much energy some people expended on the questions of the Rapture, prophecy, etc. It became a distraction from day-to-day discipleship, and it could be divisive within fellowship groups. I think it's understandable that people are interested in such things, but the more you read history, the more you realize that various generations of Christians (perhaps even every generation of Christians?) wonders if they're living in the end times.

[pelagius]

16. Well said!

During my fundegelical upbringing it seemed that the only two books of the Bible we ever heard preached about were Romans and Revelations.