Should I give up and become an atheist?

[elshiva]

I tried to read Richard Dawkins' "God Delusion." It was too painful to finish, but a lot of what he says is true. I've tried to become an atheist, but I can not stop believing in God. I know Christianity is responsible for a lot of the problems of homophobia, but I remain a member of the Episcopal Church and a Supporter of Integrity, the GLBT Episcopalian Organization.

I think that I a too self-centered. How could God actually care about me? But I can not stop believing that He does care for me in my little boring struggles.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. It sounds to me like you don't really want to be an atheist, but you are unsatisfied with your

faith as it stands now. So what can you do to fix that?

[elshiva]

2. No, I do not want to be an atheist.

I'll think about that more. Maybe I need to go to a new church. I tried to go today, but I was just so afraid. I felt people judging me and I can't stand it.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. Yup! New church. Find one that's less dogmatic and...

judgmental.

I have some lists, if you're interested.

[elshiva]

4. Less Judgmental Definitely!

[Critters2]

9. My experience of Episcopalians has never been that they

are judgmental. I'm disappointed to find this post, frankly.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Might be even a need for a new parish

in the same church - they can vary widely.

We had a bit of an influx in our parish with "refugees" from some nearby very conservative parishes in the past few years.

[roguevalley]

16. loving and believing in God does not require a church or religion.

Spirituality is where you seem to be headed. If you need community, find a UU church.

[Az]

5. You do not choose what you believe

Trying to become an atheist seems foolish to me. If you believe in a god of some sort then why break yourself trying to not believe in it? Just because you do not believe in the sort of god you have been preached to about does not mean you have to give up your belief in gods.

Be what you are. Do not worry about fitting a label. If the community you associate with is a vital part of your life then find one that does not insist you fit a label (Unitarian Universalist churches are good for this). Find your own path and travel it. Find your own truth. You do not need others to determine what you should accept as true. You need to work that out for yourself.

[elshiva]

6. Thank you, Az.

I have tried the Unitarians, but it is not for me. I need people who are not afraid to talk about God and Jesus Christ. I am a universalist in that I believe everyone is going to heaven, but not a Unitarian because I believe in the Trinity.

I've not been back to my church. Too much political junk. I love my priest, who is very pro-gay, but she even admits it's very much a club.

[kwassa]

7. Not all Episcopal churches are the same.

Some are far more inclusive, and less of the clubby "frozen-chosen" variety.

You're in the Baltimore diocese, correct? I don't know much about that area, but there are very diverse and very liberal churches in the Washington diocese right next store. I would also be surprised if there weren't more inclusive churches in your diocese.

There is also a great Episcopal blog-o-sphere out there, too, where you might find some fellowship, as you do here.

[Critters2]

10. There are other progressive Trinitarian denoms, too

I'm not impartial, but you might look at the UCC. Still, I think it's best for you to look for a different Episcopal church. That seems to be where your heart is.

[mcg]

11. Maybe United Church of Christ, Unity, or Universalist?

It depends on what is in your area. There aren't many Universalist churches. I went to one for a couple of services. United Church of Christ is probably, from what I know, about as close to Universalist as you are going to get without going to a Universalist church. It might depend on the particular church though.
Unity is less mainstream than UCC.

[Peggesis1]

20. Episcopal Churches do come in all stripes--including the worst frozen chosen

I'm an Episcopalian who has seen the best and the worst of quite a few churches. If you live in a large or medium sized city you should be able to find a Lutheran, Methodist, or Episcopal church that's very gay friendly. For example, in Toledo, there are two Episcopal Churches where the priests are themselves lesbians in open and committed relationships. I think you'll really want a church where gay people are not just tolerated but honored. You have every right to be respected. Another plus is the existance of small groups in the parish where you can meet with other people, gay and straight, to talk openly about yout faith.

I hope you find such a community. I know they're out there.

[Kire]

17. that's beautiful: "you do not choose what you believe"

I have done a lot of "research", whether it be Unitarians, Baptist, Kabbalah, several different 12 Step groups, Hindu, Buddhist, Post-modernism, Anarchy, Agnosticism, Psychological theories, there's also inspirational stories in business and politics, etc..

It's not all about one thing.

I have found that it's best to learn about what is written down. What are the concepts that I learn from this group? I then can make up my own mind, or not. Maybe at some later point, it will make sense.

What do I want? What feels right? What does my intuition say?

Faith, Acceptance, Harmony?

Admonishment, Punishment, Hellfire?

Honesty, Open Mindedness, Willingness?

Those aren't the only options, there are many that come to mind. Somebody once told me just to think about whateer positive words I can think of, get them all down on paper and meditate on it for a while. Keep it where you can see it.

But nothing is really ever THE answer.

There are laws, and they are universal. But, there are times when the laws don't seem fair, or make sense. I'm living in my head, and I can only understand what I can understand. God, or a Higher Power, is much bigger than I can ever understand. I can stand there in awe for only so long. Eventually, I'll get hungry, or dirty, or anxious or a hundred other things I'll need to "be in the world" for.

For years and years, I would hold on to the fact that I can always come back to that state of peace, but now, I have found myself able to walk around and go about my business in a pretty meditative state. It's weird. I can't make you do it, but I hope this gives you faith that it can happen.

Please keep replying to this message so that we can help each other understand what is going on.

I get benefit from just learning about whatever there is to learn, and there is a lot to learn. I have forgotten this many times, and I probably will again. Something made me curious to know more, and I am grateful for that. Not because I think I will get something out of being grateful, just that it could be a whole lot worse.

Read some of my less political journal posts to get where I'm coming from.

I'd really like to know what everybody thinks about this.

[democrat2thecore]

8. READ THIS BOOK!

The Dawkins Delusion?: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine
http://www.amazon.com/Dawkins-Delusion-Atheist-Fundamentalism-Denial/dp/083083446X

PM if you want to talk.

[wryter2000]

19. Hi, agnostic here

Before I found the Religion/Theology forum here I would have bristled at the idea of fundamentalist atheism. I would have told you that atheists/agnostics are only interested in facts and want to keep religion out of our goverment and science classes.

Wow, was I ever wrong.

It seems there are some atheists here on a crusade to prove, PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, PROVE, DO YOU HEAR ME?! that religion is not only wrong, wrong, wrong, but responsible for all the ills of the world.

[mcg]

12. Dawkins uses persuasive tactics.

He even admits it in one of his books. While I believe in evolution in general, I don't see the evidence that explains away apparent design in nature. I think Dawkin's ultra-gradual view of evolution is wrong. There are biological structures that clearly could not have formed that way. It's up to them to prove their claims and they haven't done so. Dawkin's resorts to imagining a lot of X's (he even uses that term) in discussing how eye's could form without any intelligence involved.
There is actually quite a bit of evidence for God, like the apparent fine tuning of the laws of physics, our own consciousness and qualia (qualitative experiences), and many reports of seemingly paranormal phenomena (I have witnessed some myself).
There are many choices regarding what we believe, we don't have to go along with only certain religious views or atheism. We can think and believe for ourselves.

I don't see how homosexuality by itself is a sin. Like heterosexuality, it's more how you deal with it. What are sins anyway? I don't sins are simply what some church says they are.

[skater314159]

13. Chaplain says...

Long answer alert!!! The person writing this was also on cold medicine!!!

I tried to read Richard Dawkins' "God Delusion." It was too painful to finish, but a lot of what he says is true.

As a working Chaplain/Theologian, I read the "God Delusion" - as well as Harris' "End of Faith". I must say that while they did contain some factual information, there were many MANY logical fallacies and historical errors in each.

Neither Harris or Dawkins know much of Religious Anthropology or Theology - and what little they know is characteristic of North American (specifically US) Protestant (mostly evangelical) Christianity. Both authors ignore Hermeneutics, Cosmology and Anthropology within religious contexts, and their "conclusions" ignore large swaths of the human experience with the numinous...

Oh boy, that was a big paragraph of Theobabble... sorry... if you want to know more about that subject, you can PM me... as for your major questions, here goes:

If you have "tried" to become atheist, but couldn't, I'd say its pretty simple -------> that's not who you are.

I feel that a person's faith and religion are as much a part of who they are as their gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or eye color are a part of who they are. All of those qualities are who you were made to be, and you can't change it through a sheer force of will.

When I was at University, I remember asking one of my professors (a Rabbi who was a mentor to me) why my faith is so different from that of many people (I was raised Catholic and Jewish, and currently am best described as a Panenthiestic Polythiestic Episcopalian Mystic). I wondered why it is so easy for others to have a path that many walk on, while I seem to be on a path alone. I also felt frustration over a friend who had recently "got saved" and was trying to prosyletise our group (a group of Lesbian, Gay, Bi, Genderqueer Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Pagans and Hindus). The way my friend talked, the reason we were all apostate was simply because we CHOSE to be that way... but none of us asked to be Gay or Genderqueer - and each of our faithpaths was integral to who we were as people.

The Rabbi told me the following:
"When you die, G-d will not ask you why you weren't like Moses, Avraham, or (famous Rabbi). He will ask you why *you* were not yourself. He made you just the way you are. He made your friends who they are. You will be judged on whether or not you are true to yourself. Be yourself!"

I think what you are feeling is kind of like that... but I'm not really sure. (I do better at things like this in person)

Jesus, when he met with the disciples after the Resurrection Event, talked to Peter in a very special way. Three times Jesus told Peter "Feed my sheep" - one time for each time Peter had denied him. Three times Jesus said to all of the disciples "Love one another". He didn't preach dogma or teach doctrine - just "Love one another". This told them that even though they couldn't forgive themselves for letting Jesus down on Good Friday, Jesus forgave them all and loved them deeply. Jesus loved Peter and knew him intimately. Jesus loved all of the disciples and apostles who followed him, and those who still follow his Way today.

The real lesson of the Gospels is that we are to love and forgive each other in like manner. Too many Christians today forget those words of Jesus - just like they forget the Sermon on the Mount (or plain, depending on which pericope you read) because it's a lot easier to be superficial and judgemental - and hate others who are genuinely being themselves, than it is to fearlessly be yourself.

People like Ted Haggerd, who spread homophobia, make Christians look bad precisely because they don't embrace the teachings of Jesus and be themselves. Instead of embracing who God made them to be, and making the world a better place by being that person, they instead deny entire parts of themselves. Any time someone denies such an integral part of who they are, there are going to be problems. BIG problems!

The anger, sadness, and fear that they feel comes out against people who are like themselves - people who remind them of who they REALLY are. If only Ted Haggerd and other homophobes could get in touch with their gender and sexual orientation, and live it fully as part of their following Christ, there would be a lot less hate around. I really am thankful for groups like Integrity because they help people to live out their life in a way that embraces them fully - without fear or hate.

You're not self-centered by the way, I've read your posts... and there are many occasions where what you have said has brightened my day and affirmed my beliefs. God, the Universe and the Holy Spirit all love us... each and every one of us.

They love us just as we are, because face it - they made us this way! We are each made the way that we should be to help make the Universe the Kingdom of God... another quote would be good here (last one, I promise :P)

One day a man went to the Buddha to ask him about forgiveness. He told the most-wise Bodhisattva of his past errors, mistakes, and misjudgements. Buddha watched him, a peaceful expression on his face. The man asked him "How can I ever have forgiveness and have peace like yours?" The Buddha smiled and said "Understand this: We are all already forgiven, we just have to accept that forgiveness".

Accept the love and forgiveness that is yours, and help others to see and accept theirs.

Peace and blessings to you,
skater314159
:hippie:


PS - Keep looking for a good Church home... it took my husband and I over a year to find the "right fit" for us, but we now have a home. Our faith community is open and accepting, and home many gay and lesbian couples. If you'd like some recommendations as to places to try, PM me, and I'll help.

[DFW]

14. Why in the world do you need a church to have faith?

Whatever it is you believe, it doesn't sound like you need someone else to
tell you what that is. Like the old saying goes, "being inside a church doesn't
make you a Christian any more than being inside a garage makes you a car."

[Viva_Daddy]

15. I think she's looking for a place to "belong"

I really like the quote, "being inside a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than being inside a garage makes you a car."

Anyway, it sounds to me like she's looking for a place (a church) where she feels welcomed and a group of people she would be comfortable with. That's okay, but I'm not sure it will solve the underlying urning. Look around you, kiddoo. Here you are "in the midst" of wherever you are. Do you know how you got here? How can you say you don't belong wherever you are. That's where you are, isn't it? Know that you are ALWAYS ALREADY HOME wherever you are. You are NOT "in the world". The world is IN YOU! If you weren't wherever you are, neither would the world (or any church) exist for you.

[VAliberal]

18. I don't believe in the God that atheists don't believe in

and I'm a PCUSA minister.

So far as evangelicalism and fundamentalism go - I am an atheist. I personally cannot believe in God as 'a being,' a tribal deity, a sky-god.

I love naturalism, atheism, secularism - they all invigorate and inform my own thinking about ethics, science, etc. But, too often - and Dawkins is an excellent example - contemporary atheism is attacking a view of God, a straw-man really, that is the worst example of monotheistic fundamentalism.

I find myself informed by process theology, empirical theism, secular Judaism, insights from Hindu and Buddhist traditions and other sources - including atheist, agnostic and freethinking writers. I think one can use 'God-talk,' use the language of faith, the liturgy and ritual of religion; can celebrate and revel in the mystery, horror and beauty of existence, without buying into the most primitive parodies of theism or faith employed by some of our atheist friends.

My 2 cents.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

22. Having converted from atheism, I'd say no.

Religions, in particular Christianity, have done a lot of harm in the world. But they've also done a lot of good in the world, too. How many people are fed and clothed, given hope to continue on with life, built relationships and healthy communities because of religion? A lot.

Christianity itself isn't the problem. Human nature is. I don't believe humans are broken, but we are bent and can screw things up pretty royally from time to time (whether it be in God's name, or for science, or for a country). Fortunately for us (at least if you ask me) human nature is transformative - we can change through grace and faith. That is largely an individual endeavor although I think it really helps to have a healthy, supportive faith community to worship in.

As for atheists... when I was an atheist I was pretty ardent in smashing "superstition" whenever I got the chance. Not because atheism made me a jerk or a bad person - because I was a jerk (and still am sometimes). Believe me, if atheism had been around longer and embraced by huge swaths of humanity, you'd find they'd have many of the same issues with corruption and justice that organized religions (and governments, and social clubs) have had throughout the ages.