What is important in a church to you?

[AspenRose]

This past Thanksgiving holiday was spent with the inlaws (my husband is a PK). Those of us familiar with the Wesleyan circut rider tradition know that pastors move around from congregation to congregation every few years.

So I asked at the dinner table one evening, what does one do when a new pastor comes in and is not of the same philosophical or political bent as you? Do you leave the church and find another one or do you stick it out?

The answer I received from my husband's family was that they stay put; the pastor is not the "church," the church family is the "church," and you should choose a church to affiliate with based on that. They are practicing what they believe, too: They are conservative and their pastor is quite liberal, yet they say they still love him.

I just know that when I was still living out west and our church got a new pastor, he was so outspoken about his conservative ways (to the point where he would actually go out of his way to insult democrats) I quit going to church....even though I loved fellowship with the congregation. I just couldn't take feeling marginalized.

So where am I going wrong with this?

[supernova]

1. I'm looking for

a church that does a lot of community service and has access to a lot of volunteer opportunities. I would love to find a place where I can sign up for a soup kitchen, or teaching someone to read, or something like that. I've been in a lot of places and it seems to be some big secret that you have to be expert at networking to find. I'm not. I'm not that great at the social end of things and this has been a stumbling block for me.

a church that is diverse in its makeup. God's creation is diverse, and my life is too. I want to see that reflected in the congregation too.

a church where it is OK to discuss and learn different theological viewpoints, encouraged even. I'm intellectually adventurous, and that has not always been appreciated by my peers who are more concerned with being "proper," and "doing things the right way." I'm more concerned with finding truth, in whatever way it happens to come.

a church where people are OK if I as a single person, don't automatically sign up or appreciate getting drafted for every single committee. I like balance in my life too. I don't have as much public time as others like to imagine I do.

[kwassa]

2. Community is more important than the pastor, for me.

We finally found a church that has a great community feel, and it is local to us, too. Right after we found it, the pastor retired, and the assistant pastor, who we also loved, took a position half way across the country. This made me very nervous. We finally got a new pastor, and he is a very good choice.

I am an Episcopalian, but many of the Episcopal churches are not friendly places, and we have found a wonderful exception. My spiritual interests are quite eclectic, though, and the new pastor has clearly been influenced by Eastern religious practices and other studies, which I like. There never will be a church that perfectly fits me, I realized that a long time ago, but this is pretty close, and I love the community. That is what the church is all about.

We left a church that was very politically liberal, but was run by a small core of long-time members that were complete control freaks and closed to any idea of change. While they claimed progressive ideals, these ideals were not practiced on the day-to-day level. Socially, the church had many personal cliques that didn't interact much and were not open to newcomers. The church was liberal enough to have a lesbian pastor, and her partner was welcomed into the congregation, but the pastor was not a good manager, and let the small group of lay people prevent positive change and growth. We left, and so did many long-time members who were most active in community ministries in frustration with general disorganization and personality power struggles. Church politics can be the very worst.

We also wanted diversity, as we are an interracial couple, and many Episcopal churches can be all white. Both the old church and new were quite diverse, though. The politics were great at the first church, but it was still a place we didn't want to be. The politics are great at the second church, too, and there is a lot of community service involved.

[supernova]

3. I feel the same

about the pastor.

My old church is similar to what you describe. They are good at welcoming new people, but resist changing the liturgy or the outlook of the church in any way. And yes, the same old stalwarts have been there from the beginning. I left because I finally realized I had a different vision of what a church could be than what they were willing to go for.

Glad you have found a church home. :-)

I feel that the community is more important, and to me the minister needs to be more of a mentor/professor type rather than an authority figure. The more authority the minister assumes, the less connected I feel to the group. And oddly, I can feel God receding into the background. That's what most troubles me. That has to do with my own authority issues, obviously, But I have a thunderous egalitarian streak, and I find anyone assuming more power beyond facilitating the group, I find very offputing because that means you usually have to go through the minister to find out what's really going on.

[kwassa]

5. Episcopal rectors generally don't try to be authority figures ...

except for the conservative schismatics, each of whom would like to be the first Episcopal Pope. Not that they agree with each other, either.

At the same time, I don't like rectors who stand too far back and let a small core of people dictate everything. This is too common in Episcopal churches. Sometimes the laity needs a kick in the pants. A balance is needed. Our new rector does seem that professorial/mentor, but the church is running smoothly already. He stepped into a great job.

[AspenRose]

4. We share some concerns

Our family is multiracial as well....fortunately that hasn't been much of a problem (so far), which is encouraging.

You're so right about church politics. I have witnessed church politics at its very worst and I think it holds the potential to be even more appalling than anything 'secular'.

[kwassa]

6. The crazy thing about church politics ....

is that people fight over nothing! There is no money at stake, usually, no real power, and no real turf. People in a church will fight ferociously over having their way, which is also very un-Christian, in my opinion.

Churches also tend to be dominated by those volunteers who don't have other jobs, but do have oodles of time. Whether it is retirees, or stay-at-home moms, or whatever group that doesn't have an outside job, they tend to run things, often very slowly because they are under no time pressures. This can make committee meetings excruciatingly slow to get to the point!

[New Earth]

10. to me it sounds like...

you might really like a Unitarian Universalist church...I just joined one recently, and I have never even been a church person at all. With the diversity you are looking for, the ability to think on your own and be on your own spiritual path, learning and respecting different theoligical viewpoints....concerned with finding truth....wow. That is pretty much what Unitarian Universalism is about. On top of that, generally they are very liberal politcally, work hard for social justice, welcoming to GLBT....Has anyone ever recommended this to you?

ps) It is good to read about it on the internet, etc. but you really won't know for sure until you acutally GO. That's what I had to do....and it got me on the first time. I wonder where it was all my life, seriously!

http://www.uua.org/visitors/beliefswithin/index.shtml
http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml
http://uufaq.com/

you can find one near you here: http://www.uua.org/aboutus/findcongregation/index.php

[New Earth]

11. nevermind...

I think I saw in another thread that you were already considering this. So did you end up liking it? Or did you look into something else?

[theredpen]

7. Mystical Traditions

My wife and I are both mystics and require a church that embraces Christian mysticism (at least). Eastern Orthodox churches are great for this, but come with other baggage. Roman Catholic can be good, but American Catholics tend to be too heavily influenced by the evangelical vein in American society that is distrustful and disrespectful of mysticism.

There are a few "do you own thing" denominations, such as Unity Church (not to be confused with Unitarian), but if we're going to drag ourselves out of bed on Sunday morning, we'd like to participate in a coherent religion. Too many "new age" churches don't have any boundaries at all, "You want to believe that Jesus was a woman? Okay!" No, not OK. Jesus was male and this doesn't reflect badly on women in any way. The Holy Spirit was female so Jesus certainly was more possessed that most people of the feminine aspects of the universe; isn't that enough?

After looking around at the Catholic and Orthodox churches in our area, we ended up attending an Episcopal church that really suits us. It has a focus on individuality, but maintains a strong sense of identity and doesn't waffle about its Christian theology.

http://thedoubter.org/

[kwassa]

8. what diocese are you in?

and have you ever read Evylyn Underwood's "Mysticism", which is about Christian mysticism?

[theredpen]

9. Dallas

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. I am attracted to

a traditional, Eucharist-based worship style, good music (especially a choir that I can sing in), intelligent and spiritually informative preaching, a spirit of community service, a set of parish activities that don't classify people by age or marital status after age 18 (I once tried and rejected a church where the only activities listed were the youth group, the couples' club, and the senior citizens' group. At the time I was 34 and single, so clearly, I didn't belong there), a diverse and friendly congregation, and opportunities for learning. My current parish fulfills all these requirements, except, on occasion, the part about the preaching.

I've found these things mostly in Episcopal churches, but I was raised Lutheran and have attended Lutheran churches at various times in my life, too, although not since being officially received in 1991.