What if they are right and we are wrong?

[elshiva]

Pascal's wager... We can't scientifically prove that there is a hell or that hell does not exist.


What if our interpretation of the Bible is wrong? What if it is wrong and sinful to support Integrity? I dearly love it, but sometimes I worry. I have looked at the Bible texts and studied them.

Sometimes I just do not know....

[theredpen]

1. The scriptural support for "hell" as it is commonly depicted is pretty flimsy

Furthermore, why would it matter if there were no hell?

[spoony]

14. I just read a wonderful book called "The Evangelical Universalist"

It really laid out the case against eternal punishment, from just about every denominational angle too. I was giddy reading it, it made so much sense.

[spoony]

15. Whoops, geez I came to this thread late eh? lol

[gatorboy]

2. I guess there is a reason why it's considered "faith".

And by "they" you mean the folks gloating over the church shootings in GD, I'll take my chances with the "we".

[elshiva]

3. Sorry, that my OP was so vague.

I was thinking fundamentalist vs. left... :shrug:

[mcg]

4. A just and loving God sending someone to eternal Hell???

It doesn't make sense.

[skater314159]

6. Yeh...

especially when you ask people who endorse the idea how it works (I have fun doing that :silly: ).

I mean, how can a place exist that God is not? God IS. In Hebrew, God's name is the verb TO BE. When you speak or use Hebrew, you don't use the tense of the verb to be... for example you'd say "I going store" instead of "I am going to the store". Only God IS. God is a verb - God is ISNESS itself. SO HOW THE HECK CAN HELL (supposedly a place where God IS NOT and there is ETERNAL PUNISHMENT) EXIST? It's total BS... especially when you begin to include people of other faith traditions and paths.

I'll just stick with "God is love" and universal atonement and salvation, thanks.

Anyways, that's just my Theological and Anthropological opinion.

[skater314159]

5. Christ is about love, not hate.

It's that simple. He always included the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden and excluded in his ministry. Women, children, lepers - today these groups would be replaced with Drag Queens, AIDS victims, people from third world nations, rich materialists who think money can solve all their problems, war crimnals, etc. Christ would include all of these people in his Kingdom.

The greatest commandment is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and love your neighbour as yourself". Fundamentalists don't generally follow this in that they judge others and use fear (of hell or punishment from God) to manipulate people. That is religious and spiritual abuse. Abuse is bad, even if you try to drag Jesus' name into it.

I find that Matthew 23, verses 1-36 and Matthew 25, verses 31-46 show us that some people are going to be in for a surprise... many Fundamentalists today (be they Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Pagan or whatever) are acting like the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day. They think that their "holy" appearance and judgemental facade somehow makes them a better person. If you get past this facade, you will find a person who is consumed with fear and self-loathing... it's best to pray for them. Oh yeh, and the whole "The standards you use to measure others is what will be used to measure you" pretty much says it all - having love and acceptance for others is really the best policy.

As for me, I figure that if there is no afterlife, at least I did my best to bring the Kingdom of God to Earth and did some Tikkun Olam. That can never hurt... and if there is an afterlife, it'll be okay. I mean I didn't worry when I was in my mother's womb, and everything here is good... so I'll just trust in God and pray for everybody.

Hope that helped - I know it was rambling.

skater314159
:hippie:

[Critters2]

7. As to what happens after death, I generally avoid speculating

I don't know, and neither do they. As to homosexuality, Integrity, etc, Jesus never mentions it. So it can't be THE SIN, as some try to present it. I think of glbt folks as the prostitutes and tax collectors of our day--I have no doubt Jesus would hang out with 'em. Me, I'm willing to err on the side of kindness and mercy.

If that's wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Kajsa]

9. Hi Mycritters2,

I completely agree with you.

Jesus would be helping all who are in need.

Question,

Where do you get the great advent candles avatar?

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

8. It makes no difference...

who's right or wrong, and we'll never really know anyway.

The Quaker attitude toward scripture is that it is used to confirm or clarify what we have learned through the LIght-- our inward relationship with God. We feel that we can be "divinely inspired" as well as the authors of scripture were, and by the same forces.

There are matters of grave importance-- slavery, violence, dictatorship, inequality and many others-- that we have worked work against, but as for individual lifestyles that hurt no one, we cannot know the mind of God and will not speak for God in these matters.

So, whether we are "right" or "wrong" ultimately makes very little difference.

[Sanctified]

10. Well if they are right and I am wrong then what do I lose?

However if I am right and they are wrong they have a lot to lose.

[Kajsa]

12. Milton, I've been so tempted to post that

in the dungeon known as the R/T forum.

But few would hear it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Do fundamentalists ask themselves the quesetion, "What if the liberals are

right and we are wrong?"

Not very often, I dare say.

Back in the 1980s, when I was with a church-related peace group, we had the same discussion about the pro-war types, especially the Pat Robertson types whose attitude toward nuclear annihilation was "Bring it on!"

We came to the conclusion that the fact that we can doubt shows that we actually believe in using our God-given brains to assess a situation.

[hvn_nbr_2]

13. Pascal's Wager and God-given brains

If I "believe" based on Pascal's Wager, then it isn't real belief; it's just playing a game theory game. So I'd be lost anyway. Believing is not the same as acting as if one believes, pretending to believe, or doing the things that one would do if one did believe, all based on a game theory calculation.

Second point: Lydia L referred above to "using our God-given brains." The god that the fundies believe in isn't smart enough to design a logical, consistent, sensible grand scheme of the universe and salvation and he is sometimes a psychotic psychopath; as such, he probably couldn't design a "heaven" that would work very well either. The real God of the universe invented very logical and sensible gravity, periodic table of elements, and mathematics that always work and make sense. I'll take my chances with the one that isn't psychotic and does make sense.