Pulpit charlatans and the harm they cause.

[Jack Sprat]

Religion. I just don't know. True story: I'm channel surfing and I come across Rev Hagee. He has just imploded with this line: "God hates a coward." At that remark, I kept surfing. But I thought how insane he sounded. So God hates a coward? How would Rev Hagee know what God thinks about cowards?

I know that some of you have much different ministers that convey a much gentler message of love. I was raised in a Baptist church where the variety of ministers over the years all shared an ability to get all lathered up with veins popping and extremely emotional. Sometimes, it seemed like rage, sometimes near tears, but always working their way gradually into a feverish like climax. I did not enjoy it and seldom ever participate in religious services now or anytime since being an adult. I still hold to my basic faith in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit. It is just personal and private now.

Anyway, we see every few days that one of the presidential candidates is embarrassed by one Brother Love pastor or another and generally it seems to revolve around some hateful rhetoric from the pulpit. I saw a posting about how religion it the source of many problems and I think maybe it is true. All too often church pastors do not convey a message of peace, brotherhood, and charity. Most seem to speak from some self-exalted, judge-jury-executioner attitude. Where's this going? I don't know. It is just some thoughts that I was thinking today. I just get infuriated sometimes at these supposed messengers of God.

[Critters2]

1. The majority of pastors aren't doing this. That's why you hear of these.

They're the exception that proves the rule.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. The Hagee types are one of the dangers of "non-denominational" churches

In this country, anyone can found his own church and declare himself a minister. According to Wikipedia, Hagee was drummed out of the Assemblies of God for adultery and then went on to found his megachurch.

In the denomininations, clergy have to go through quite a vetting process before they can step into that pulpit, including three years of seminary. That tends to weed out most of the Elmer Gantry types.

[murielm99]

3. Very true.

I am a United Methodist. Years ago, we had a pastor who told me that Jim Jones had applied to attend a United Methodist seminary. They rejected him as unsuitable for the ministry.

I was raised Lutheran and attended a Lutheran-affiliated college as an undergrad. One of my school acquaintances applied to attend a Lutheran seminary. They accepted him on academic grounds, but told him that it was a conditional acceptance. He could take an advanced degree and apply for a teaching position at the seminary level, but he could not become an ordained minister. He was highly offended. Knowing this person, I fully understood why they did not want him in the ministry. I have always wondered if this was a polite way of telling him to get lost. On the other hand, he was brilliant enough to have been a fine Biblical or theological scholar.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. I was just on the so-called discernment committee for a woman who

feels a call to the Episcopal priesthood. Here are the steps so far:

1. Talk to the clergy at your own church.

2. Gather a discernment committee of nine people, both men and women, who dissect your whole life and motivations once a month for a full year and then write a report recommending for or against your moving on.

3. In the meantime, develop a "ministry" of your own within your parish.

4. Spend another year being investigated by the diocesan discernment council.

5. Spend three years in seminary.

6. Spend one year as a "transitional deacon" in a parish.

7. Be ordained when you get a call of your own.

This process tends to weed out the quick money charlatans. :-)

[Critters2]

5. My seminary was (well, is) affiliated with the UCC and the ABC,

and was always clear with us that they would grant us a degree--assuming we met requirements--but that that had nothing to do with ordination. Ordination was the business of association Church and Ministry Committees, and we couldn't assume that the school would let us complete a degree because we were in care; nor that completing a degree would automatically mean we'd be ordained. Of course, being a denominationally-affiliated seminary, they worked in tandem with judicatories to see that required courses--polity, CPE, etc--were offered. But a degree and ordination were two different matters.

And yeah, I graduated with two people who got degrees but weren't ordained. I don't know what happened to one, the other went on to a PhD in patristics, and is a highly thought of scholar. Obviously, he had a vocation and is well-suited to it. It just wasn't ordained ministry.

Btw, Jim Jones was originally ordained by the Disciples of Christ. That was before they were officially a denomination, and local churches could ordain. A judicatory committee did see which way the wind was blowing, and pulled his standing before things got out of control. Obviously, this meant nothing to him, and he kept marching toward oblivion. That's one of several reasons why the Disciples have pretty tight ordination standards now. But, as someone else pointed out, if people like that want to start a church, they will. With or without credentials.