Evidence for the infallibility of scripture.

[Why Syzygy]

This represents part of the puzzle which was put together as I sought to know Truth and followed to the discovery of a blessed salvation. The sources vary in other tenets, perhaps. I was pursuing just this particular facet. Research has always been a favorite of mine, and I always require lots of convincing.

Article is snipped...
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/102/

Evidence of Design:
Beloved Numerologist
by Chuck Missler

Bible Codes

The numerical structure of the Bible has been studied closely, being the subject of numerous volumes in the past.1 But none are more provocative than the works of Dr. Ivan Panin.2
...

In 1890 he discovered some of the phenomenal mathematical designs underlying both the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew text of the Old Testament.
...

An Example

The first 17 verses of the Gospel of Matthew are a logical unit, or section, which deals with a single principal subject: the genealogy of Christ. It contains 72 Greek vocabulary words in these initial 17 verses. (The verse divisions are man's allocations for convenience, added in the 13th century.)

The number of words which are nouns is exactly 56, or 7 x 8.

The Greek word "the" occurs most frequently in the passage: exactly 56 times, or 7 x 8. Also, the number of different forms in which the article "the" occurs is exactly 7.

There are two main sections in the passage: verse 1-11, and 12-17. In the first main section, the number of Greek vocabulary words used is 49, or 7 x 7.

Why not 48, or 50?

Of these 49 words, the number of those beginning with a vowel is 28, or 7 x 4. The number of words beginning with a consonant is 21, or 7 x 3.

The total numbers of letters in these 49 words is 266, or 7 x 38 - exactly! The number of vowels among these 266 letters is 140, or 7 x 20. The number of consonants is 126, or 7 x 18 - exactly.

Of the 49 words, the number of words which occur more than once is 35, or 7 x 5. The number of words occurring only once is 14, or 7 x 2. The number of words which occur in only one form is exactly 42, or 7 x 6. The number of words appearing in more than one form is also 7.

The number of the 49 Greek vocabulary words which are nouns is 42, or 7 x 6. The number of words which are not nouns is 7. Of the nouns, 35 are proper names, or exactly 7 x 5. These 35 names are used 63 times, or 7 x 9. The number of male names is exactly 28, or 7 x 4. These male names occur 56 times or 7 x 8. The number which are not male names is 7.

Three women are mentioned - Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, 7 x 2.
...
Other Implications

There are words in the passage just described that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18). How was this organized?

Even if Matthew contrived this characteristic into his Gospel, how could he have known that these specific words - whose sole characteristic is that they are found nowhere else in the New Testament - were not going to be used by the other writers? Unless we assume the absurd hypothesis that he had an agreement with them, he must have had the rest of the New Testament before him when he wrote his book. The Gospel of Matthew, then, must have been written last.
...
more at link

Additional links:
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/whichbib.htm
http://www.theomatics.com/theomatics/examp1.html

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. You might do better to post this int he "Astrology/Other silly woo woo" forum

Here's an example:

You said, "In 1890 he discovered some of the phenomenal mathematical designs underlying both the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew text of the Old Testament."

1890 - it starts with 18 (3x6) and ends with 90 (3x10x3), and the digits add up to 18 (3x3x2)!!

Your sentence has 27 (3x9) words! It's a perfect cube of the Trinity (3x3x3)!


The middle word is "Greek", the language of the New Testament!

The fifth word, "some", and the fifth word from the end, "text", both have four letters - there are also four gospels in the New Testament!

This kind of symmetry cannot happen without Divine Guidance!

Also notice how, in your final both/and clause, each section has seven words: "the Greek text of the New Testament", and "the Hebrew text of the Old Testament".

Divine Guidance!!!!

:eyes:

[Critters2]

4. Silly woo-woo!

Exactly! :rofl:

[Why Syzygy]

6. I have to ask,

do you fit the posted guidelines for posting in this group:

The DU Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group is for Christians and Christian-friendly persons who would like to have an open discussion about our faith and its role in the world around us. Our group will provide a safe haven for discussion and support, and find ways to express our beliefs in positive, non-threatening ways. Group members agree to an open forum, welcoming all progressive faiths and other open-minded people. By participating, we agree that we will not engage in proselytizing or denigrating other religions or non-believers.

[Why Syzygy]

5. This is the correct forum.

Thanks for taking a look. I'll look into it further, and examine the illustrations you've provided.

I have some other information related to the numerics in the Bible, which I'll try to contribute when I have more time.

But, I have to ask, do you fit the posted guidelines for posting in this group:

The DU Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group is for Christians and Christian-friendly persons who would like to have an open discussion about our faith and its role in the world around us. Our group will provide a safe haven for discussion and support, and find ways to express our beliefs in positive, non-threatening ways. Group members agree to an open forum, welcoming all progressive faiths and other open-minded people. By participating, we agree that we will not engage in proselytizing or denigrating other religions or non-believers.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. Of course I fit the guidelines. So do you.

Unfortunately, numerology is just utter bullshit, and I pointed it out as such. I even offered to you that you would do better with the bullshit over the astrology/other silly woo-woo forum.

You need to grow some fucking skin, sparky. If you think that the guidelines of this forum means "NO ONE MUST CRITICIZE ANYONE AT ALL FOR ANY REASON EVER EVER EVER OR I WILL DROP ON THE FLOOR AND ROLL AROUND SCREAMING LIKE A TODDLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!", then you are mistaken.

We are free to critique one another's beliefs.

I think numerology is bullshit. It's hocus pocus. It shows a complete lack of understanding of mathematics, probability, and language construction.

I showed how bullshitty it is by doing the same mumbo jumbp hocus pocus idiocy to your sentence the numerologist blowhard jackoffs apply to the Bible.

You, of course, are very welcome here; and you are welcome to post anything you like. Anyone is. And we'll have a discussion about it, challenge one another, and put thoughts and ideas to the test.

But if you post woowoo, be prepared to have it challenged way more than legitimate theology.

[Why Syzygy]

9. Fair enough.

The ideas I post are not guaranteed to be woo-woo free.

I got here as I did, and I'll want to pursue presenting some of those ideas and discovering other perspectives.

Since I've never posted in this group until a few days ago, I'm not familiar with anyone here as related to this group. I think being called "woo-woo" right off the bat is a valid reason for questioning whether or not either you or I are in the wrong place.

I feel a need to repeat: Some of my concepts are WOO WOO. My Christianity does not rule out woo-woo, and that's what I'm here to discuss.

[Critters2]

14. Ah. Voici le probleme...

My Christianity DOES rule out woo-woo. Woo-woo distracts us from the very clear ethical teachings of Jesus. Distraction from justice and peace is the purpose of woo-woo.

[Why Syzygy]

15. And that's fine for you.

By posting in this group, we both agreed to:
find ways to express our beliefs in positive, non-threatening ways
and
not engage in proselytizing or denigrating other religions

I actually do want to hear alternate view points. I just don't want to be referred to as "silly". That isn't consistent with the agreement to post here. Or, do you disagree?

[Critters2]

17. You find "silly" threatening?

That's just silly!

[Rabrrrrrr]

16. If you can't guarantee a lack of woowoo, then hie thee to the astrology/other silly woowoo forum.

This is a place for intelligent, intellectual, educated discourse about religion. It is not a place for woowoo.

The astrologists, the "pagans", the fundamentalists, the knowledge-fearing Evangelicals are the places to go with your woowoo.

I'm sorry, but, seriously, this forum is for Christians and other people of faith with progressive ideals; it is not the place for ignorance, nor knowledge-fearing, nor intellectual-hating, nor is it a place for idiotic ideas that keep the woowoo demographic in fear.

[Why Syzygy]

18. Unfortunately for you,

That isn't the group description at all. Maybe read it again?

This isn't the Religion forum. It's for Christians. I am neither evangelical nor a fundamentalist.

[54anickel]

24. But in all honesty and with all due respect Why Syzygy, about the only thing

that is in common with "Christianity" in your belief system is the book Christianity is based upon. Your "teachings" are based Gnosticism and that is still considered a different "religion". (Blame the early church father's for that - not Rabrrrrrr or Critters2 or the title and intention of this forum.)

[Why Syzygy]

25. Well, no.

You won't be able to find a term to define my salvation. The only modern concept that can be applied to what has been revealed for me is "Preterist".

However. I mistook the name of the group. I thought it was "Liberal" "Christians", when in fact it is "Liberal Christians".

There is nothing that I have received that indicates I need to convince any one else. So, I will leave you.

[54anickel]

26. Best wishes on your journey. While you may not have received what you were looking for -

There is nothing that I have received that indicates I need to convince any one else.

I do hope you were able to "receive" something from your time here.

This really is a loving group. If we sometimes come off a bit harsh, it is because we do love and care for others, so much. There's so much to do, so much "good fruit" to bear for others. You seem to offer only a self-gratifying distraction from the real, world-healing work that God has given to all of us to do in this life time. Your salvation, my salvation, everyone's salvation is a done deal! That IS the "good news". Why belabor it when there is so much healing left to do...

God's peace.

On edit:
Please know that you have helped me, though maybe not as you intended, more than you will ever realize. You've been a blessing to me to help me recover my own thoughts and faith. People cross paths for reasons - God surely does work in mysterious ways.

[Critters2]

27. Well said, 54anickel! nt

[54anickel]

28. Thank you Critters. I can't begin to tell you what your validation means to me right now. I'm

bawling my eyes out. Please see the edit I made to that post before I found your "well said" to understand why.

[Critters2]

29. Even better. You're a good soul, 5. I especially liked your post #11

in this thread. I'm not sure why you're upset, but you're a good moderating influence, which every discussion board--yes, even this one--needs. Thanks for that! :hug:

[54anickel]

32. Not upset, just emotional. I think it has to do with menopause, AND

the "good vibrations" of an unexplainable, overwhelming sense of love and compassion I pick up in the darned-est of all places! Must be that mystical holy spirit floating around again. :shrug: :hug:

I just can't understand this seeking of hidden, magical, mystery crap. For me, it's as simple as putting ourselves aside for one freaking moment and allowing ourselves to be embraced and bathed in that sense of unconditional love. That's what frees us to feel compassion, experience the pain of others, realize the need for healing and moves us to "bear fruit". Putting ones self aside is the hard and magical part. Just can't seem do it on our own no matter how hard we try.

As for post 11, yeah, I guess I live to propagate ear-worms! :evilgrin:
Oops, that wasn't what 11 was....thank you. :blush:

[Why Syzygy]

31. 54..

:grouphug: I hope you reconsider my motives. They are not self-gratifying distraction. I was merely trying to share some of the things that were used to get my attention and help me realize the truth of King Jesus Christ. He touches us where we need to be touched. I'm the sort who doesn't trust "feelings". Mine were jerked around over and over as a child and young adult by over dramatic preachers playing on guilt. God knew I needed somethings to THINK about, or I would never be able to accept and surrender.

You are right. Done deal. So many don't know. I didn't. I felt as if I had heard the gospel good news for the very first time.

I know that you received the other information with a glad heart. I am fully at God's disposal these days. If He uses me only for a moment, it is okay with me. As long as it is He who lights the way.

That's what blesses me.

edit to add: Go in Peace.

[54anickel]

33. ...

And serve the Lord
Thanks be to God!!!

Dontcha love liturgy - gives us all some level grounding to cling to while respecting our differences. :grouphug: backatcha!

on edit - it wasn't you or your motives I was labeling, it's the focus of your "teaching".

[Rabrrrrrr]

34. "self-gratifying distraction from the real, world-healing work" - beautifully said!

One of the reasons that I hate woowoo with such a passion, and why I detest the personal piety focus of the fundamentalists and mega-church evangelical shitwits.

I'm with you - our salvation is a done deal. We can stop the "trying to earn it" bullshit, and focus on the "living it out in the world" part that Jesus was trying to kick our asses into doing.

We should be out healing others, not doing nonsensical woowoo or focusing on our own salvation.

Many moons ago, in one of the fora here, I summed up the whole Jesus thing as Jesus came to tell us to stop worrying about the after-life, because we all get in, it's done, it's a done deal, you all get in, stop worrying about it, stop focusing your attention on yourself or the sins of others because they get in, too - everybody gets in! - you can't make it not happen, so shut up and go live lives of love and mistakes and failures from risking too much love because, as I said, everyone gets in, it all works out in the end, so stop fucking around.

[54anickel]

35. Oh Rabrrrrrr, you have such a way with words! I love the way you tell it like it is!

People have such a hard time with the done deal. They think it's unfair - no justice in it, someone's getting a free ride. :eyes:
Well where the hell was the justice in the crucifixion of Jesus? "Oh, but it was a sacrifice and he did it all for little old me". Bullshit logic in that one.

[Critters2]

36. Someone IS getting a free ride...

ME!! And I am damn grateful for it!! :)

[54anickel]

37. Bwahahaha!! YES!!!!! An example where "Incurvatus in se" might actually be useful! n/t

[supernova]

2. Numerology is just a fun puzzle to me

It doesn't have anything to do with scripture, which I don't consider to be infallible. *gasp*

[Critters2]

3. Oh, Lord...

:eyes:

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. It's hard for me to understand...

how the number of words in a chapter of Matthew or how many times a certain word appears says anything at all about the infallible accuracy of something written a thousand years earlier that gets the name of the Persian (I think, maybe some other country) king wrong, according to all other historical sources.

It's hard for me to understand how counting various sorts of jots and tittles makes sense of this: You must fear God. You must love God. There is no fear in love. The only way I make sense of that with numerological countings is "if six turn out to be nine" and "25 or 6 to 4".

[Why Syzygy]

10. As far as

I can think of right now, the only tools I'm interested in are ones that help me have a fuller understanding. I found this information to meet that criteria. There are other writings dealing with numerics that I haven't posted yet.

My journey moved very quickly once pieces began falling in place. I covered vast amounts of material in a short time. I also drew upon my life long education in the Bible and world religions, which was there in the recesses.

I don't know why you would say I fear God, so I can't respond to that. Are you asking for an excuse for "contradictions" in the Bible? I also fail to grasp the meaning of your last sentence.

[54anickel]

12. Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?

In reply to your "25 or 6 to 4" comment - now I've got Chicago stuck in my head.

[54anickel]

11. Is the infallibility of scripture important to you? Even if it were infallible, what about our

interpretation of it? Would we know how to recognize the correct interpretation so as not to be deceived? What good is an infallible or inerrant scripture if it's interpretation is not also guaranteed as such? :shrug:

[Why Syzygy]

20. Greek and Hebrew

are not interpretations. They are from original documents.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. 54anickel didn't say that they were interpretations.

54anickel asked you if, given your premise that scripture is infallible, does that mean that interpretation is infallible?

And I hope you realize that we have NO original documents of any biblical text, and that in almost all cases, we have numerous versions of each book in the Bible. And that in at least one case - the book of Hosea - we have no version of the entire book; no matter what translation of the Bible you go to, the translation of Hosea will have been done from a gathering of various documents, patching them together to the bets ability of the scholars. And, yes, we do have the Septuagint, which has a whole version, and of course the Masoretic text, but the Septuagint is in Greek, and the Masoretic text is only 1300 or so years old, and while it is accepted as probably pretty close to the originals, there are some differences between it and the Septuagint and also Qumran texts and other very old documents that archaeology continues to dig up.

This is precisely why the numerology bullshit is nothing but woowoo and bullshit. And also why the idea of an infallible Biblical text is woowoo.

[54anickel]

23. Apologies, perhaps I should have been clearer. By interpretation, I do not mean translation but

rather how an individual interprets/understands the Bible. That was one of the major points made against the idea of an infallible pope back during the reformation. Now people tend to seek out and give mystical and magical powers to the pages some leather-bound book. We're willing to take the power that comes with infallibility away from the pope, rightfully so IMHO, but then we turn around and give it away to this inanimate object rather than claim it for ourselves.

Here's my opinion, take it for what it's worth:

The mystery, the magic, the mystical power is granted to EVERYONE by God - we just sometimes refuse to open our hearts and minds to the idea. The Bible is a collection of various types of literature - historical accounts, fables, poems, songs, law codes, etc - stories, narratives some of which were most likely part of an oral tradition long before they were written down. Take the books of the New Testament for example - the oldest written manuscripts we have come years after Jesus' crucifixion. Three of the four Gospels are similar, yet different, accounts of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus (actually some of the oldest copies of Mark and other ancient writings not in the Bible skip the resurrection, but I digress).

How to account for the differences in the Gospels? Interpretation of the stories and events of the time. Interpretation through the "lens" of the author that is shaped by his life, beliefs and the beliefs and customs of his community. We each have a lens that shapes our understandings.

Now here's the mysterious, magical, mystical part that so many people crave and search for. The Bible is living, it's alive - growing and changing as God reveals himself to us. God inspired the authors to write down the story, then later inspired how it was pieced together, then how the writings were translated, then how they were interpreted as we learn more (through historical/archaeological findings), etc, etc. God speaks to us through those pages as he helps us to interpret them. It helps if we attempt to learn the original intent - its meaning to the original author and audience - and then apply that to out lives today. Need more mystery and magic? Toss in the idea of a holy spirit guiding it all and using our pack tendencies to live in community as a check-valve.

You can look for secret, personal messages in the Bible if that's what trips your trigger. But I don't think that's how God ever intended to reveal himself. That's looking for something exclusive, something that separates and attempts to make an individual or group special. That's not much different than the fundies interpretation that attempts to define who's in and who's out. A loving God, creator of everyone and everything would want to speak his message of love, hope, and renewal to all of his creation and he wouldn't do it through secret messages in some book.

That's my 2 cents worth and it cost you nothing.

Oops, I didn't get around to finishing this post before getting distracted. Meanwhile Rabrrrrrr slipped in an much more concise and excellent explanation of the various translations we have.

[rrneck]

13. The need for evidence betrays a lack of faith. nt

[Why Syzygy]

19. If that were the case,

God would have just let me go on as I was. Teaching was a very important part of Jesus' ministry.

[rrneck]

30. I wasn't aware

that Jesus taught mathematics.

I have no idea what you "were" any more than I know what you "are". Nor do I need to know, it's none of my business. You have alluded to progress, and for that progress you should be congratulated. I am suggesting that the need to cast scripture in the context of a mathematical proof is to use it incorrectly. Empirical proof of divinity is impossible. Period. Any attempt of that proof is a waste of time.

They don't call it a leap of faith for nothing.

[Why Syzygy]

21. One author's guide to translations

snipped

Ivan Panin's New Testament

Finally a small word about Ivan Panin's New Testament. Panin makes every possible attempt to reproduce the Greek in English. The result of course is bad English which is also archaic, but you do get as near as possible to what the original said. You also get decisions based on his numerics on all the disputed texts. You also get clarification of ambiguities of punctuation and other features that can be obtained no other way. Regrettably he did not have time to do similar work on the Old Testament.

But see earlier note on Ivan Panin.

http://www.growthingod.org.uk/whichbib.htm