EGADS! We church folk can be so mean!

[54anickel]

I think most of you know I live in a VERY conservative little town in a VERY conservative county. But still, these people really tend to push me over the edge. We have an adult study group that I somehow got stuck taking the lead on for this year. I decided to utilize The Wired Word (www.thewiredword.com) as a resource for some topics. The latest one which I slotted for 2 weeks was healthcare as a moral issue. I didn't think it'd be that difficult of a discussion...nevermind the how, who or politics.

Here were the Big Questions as listed on the Wired Word:

1. As a Christian, is there any reason you would not want every American to have equal access to health care? If so, what is it?

2. While "the devil is in the details" of the specific plan that finally becomes law, do you agree that in principle, universal affordable health care is a moral issue? Why or why not?

3. What meaning did Jesus' healing ministry have for his overall mission?

4. Some are arguing that "rushing" to complete this legislation is unwarranted, but is there an element of "striking while the iron is hot" in this move? What might happen if momentum is lost?

5. Is Christianity as much concerned with the well-being of our bodies as with the well-being of our souls? Explain your answer.


There were some great articles referenced as well.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/07/would-god-back-universal-health-care--religious-texts-give-us-a-good-idea-the-common-theme-dont-turn-your-back-on-th.html
http://www.tdtnews.com/story/2009/7/26/59547

Well, the first week we never got past question #1 outside of "Well, sure as a Christian I would want everyone to have access to healthcare...BUT I live in the REAL world and they're going about it all wrong!!!" After that it was a bitch fest on what people buy with EBT cards, who gets them, how FAT the people using them are, and how the church has no business issuing statements regarding healthcare. :banghead: The ELCA Social Statement from the 90's was of no use or interest. The church shouldn't be talking about healthcare they should be DOING it - like offering free clinics, nutrition education, etc. :eyes:

Jesus was NOT concerned with the poor, that's based on a selective interpretation. Jimmy Carter, Bill Moyers, Jim Wallis & Sojourners - bunch of commie-pinkos
When I brought up the churches involvement in the civil rights movement one guy said the church shouldn't have been involved with that either.

Why do I even bother...

[Critters2]

1. I must say that since we've been reading and studying mimetic theory

(I don't use that term), my congregation is softening on a lot of these kinds of attitudes. They're getting it, which is really gratifying to me. We talk about how generous God is, and what it means to be imitators of God, and they're really changing. it's not true of everyone. There are always those who don't participate in adult ed. But I'm seeing growth. i think the key is to be able to talk about these things using scripture. Many in my congregation would be suspicious of what they just see as liberal political positions. BUt if I can point to biblical texts, they're more open to the message.

I'm sorry to hear of your frustration. But many people actually learned these attitudes in church. So, it's jarring to hear the church challenge them. Keep trying, though!

[54anickel]

2. Thanks Critters...I did have quite a few biblical texts but I couldn't get them to

settle down enough to even look at them. This group tends to not want to look at scripture (they don't want a "Bible Study"). Yeah, I know, pretty hard to have a Christian discussion without ever referring to the stories of the "spiritual forefathers" of that tradition. That was one of the reasons I brought in TheWiredWord as a reference to direct the conversations. This group isn't into books, they'll tolerate an occassional teaching video, they mainly seem to like pontificating to each other. I'm about ready to leave them to their own devices.

People learn these attitudes in church...never thought about that but yeah --- who's in who's out, who's worthy and who's not, who's wheat who's weed, etc, etc, etc.
So much for the judge not stuff.

[RevCheesehead]

3. You just described many of my former churches.

I had a church which had the opportunity to become a SHARE station. This is a program for cheap, good food at greatly reduced prices. All we needed to do was to provide a space one Saturday a month for distribution. You wouldn't believe the opposition! I was told "we had them here before... they left lettuce on the floor in fellowship hall." I didn't force them to do it, but I did let them know I was greatly disappointed that we couldn't do something so incredibly simple. I even had a volunteer from our church who would supervise the group, let them in, and clean up afterwards, but NO..... :banghead:

Life looks so different from outside the church. This "time off" of mine is a real eye-opener... and I'm not so sure that I'm going back. The people inside are so cruel and judgmental, and the people outside have too often been beaten up spiritually. I suspect that Jesus would hang with the outside people. And that's far more attractive.

Best of luck to you in your class.

[54anickel]

4. Thanks Rev! Yeah, I'd have to agree that hangin' on the outside is much more

appealing. I've been an "outsider" most of my life. I still feel like an outsider in this congregation after 9 years. This is the first "membership" I've ever held and will most likely be my last. I know they say, "Never say never", but...

You know, we (as a society) really could use a lot more leaders like you --- it's such a shame that most churches don't recognize the qualities of their pastors. "Chew 'em up and spit 'em out"..."left the ministry for good". I can't believe how many people take pride in that last statement - like it's a badge of honor or something.

[RevCheesehead]

5. I was talking with my brother today...

(he's also a pastor, but in PA), and he was telling me how their conference is facing many church closings and consolidations. The ministry itself is suffering, because too many churches can no longer pay for a full-time pastor. And yes, the health insurance is a huge part of the problem (premiums average $1,200/month for a single clergy!)
When I asked him if I'd be better off moving out there, he said he really thinks some major changes are going to happen to ministry overall in the next 5 years, because we cannot go on "like we always have."

I'll be watching and waiting. If they're serious about real change, and willing to stop pandering to folks who choose to hold their congregations captive to the 1950's style of ministry, I'd be willing to reconsider. If not, I may simply choose to go out on my own. Many, many people have been encouraging me to do so... who knows? :)

Thanks for your kind words! :hug:

[murielm99]

8. I thought about your response and remembered

something we did here in the eighties, and again about fifteen years ago.

We have several United Methodist churches in our area. Some of them used to be EUB. A couple of them were country churches that joined when everything was consolidated. Everyone seems happy with the affiliation.

But a couple of those churches cannot afford a full-time pastor. At one, time, they shared a pastor who was also the youth pastor for the five United Methodist churches in our town and surrounding countryside.

For awhile, he did a street ministry in the downtown of my community. At that time, we had a big problem with teens hanging out in the downtown area at all hours of the day and night. I was never convinced that they were doing anything wrong, but they were making people uneasy. The hanging out has now stopped altogether. Maybe this group grew up and found other things to do. Maybe the laws about no smoking on the streets for those under eighteen changed things. I don't know.

This guy definitely had an unusual ministry. But he seemed to be pretty effective.

We are not doing that any more. Things have changed again, and not for the better. Also, none of the churches have any extra funds.

[murielm99]

6. My husband and I take part in the SHARE program.

We have been doing that since our kids were babies. We don't need the food so much now, with just the two of us. We do it to keep the program alive here.

With the increased demands in our community, the food pantry is under much stress. I think it is time to run another local publicity campaign for SHARE.

It is disappointing to hear that your church members were worried about lettuce on the floor. That is silly.

Our SHARE program was brought into the community by a man who was from my church. He died several years ago. He ran SHARE and the food pantry. He gave SHARE to someone else, and then started the local resale shop that the council of churches runs. Our SHARE operates out of the town hall.

That old guy, Thurston, was so wonderful. Every once in awhile, he would get up in church and lecture all of us during "Joys and Concerns." He would tell us that someone in our very own congregation needed home repairs that they could not afford. Why weren't we helping? He would chew us out for not doing things like sharing our Thanksgiving with someone who had no family, giving people rides when they needed them, taking someone to the mall to Christmas shop for their children if they did not have a reliable car. When he decided he was too old to drive, he gave his car to a family who needed one quite badly. It enabled the breadwinner to find a job.

Maybe every church needs a Thurston. He was our conscience. Maybe if I get that old, I will be a Thurston.

[RevCheesehead]

7. What a wonderful story!

God bless Thurston, and all others like him. O8)

[demwing]

9. Don't wait!

Be that person today, and maybe you'll inspire someone else to be "Like that Muriel" !!!

[murielm99]

16. Thank you. What a great idea.

Why don't I think of these things?

[RevCheesehead]

17. You do, muriel.

It's just a different topic - but you certainly put yourself out there! :hug:

[TreasonousBastard]

15. We don't have a Thurston, but...

we have a few committed people who insist we be involved with a local homeless program and as much other community outreach as we can. And everyone pretty much agrees with them.

Problem is that every church around here has been feeling the pinch for years. We're down to around 80 members now, and can find only half of them. Tough to keep the lights on, and every so often someone gets a hissyfit about something silly and we lose another one.

It's not a recession thing-- it's been going on for years. It's more the lack of feeling a need for a church or spiritual focus these days.

Are we heading for a day when the liberal voices of religion are lost and all that's left are the reactionaries?

[HopeOverFear]

10. Pray for God to remove the hardness from their hearts

[54anickel]

11. Do you assume I don't? And what of my own heart,

could it not also have been hardened when I originally posted the OP?

That is what tends to be my first concern - where is my heart in these confrontations?

[HopeOverFear]

12. Absolutely not! I was just giving you advice.

Sorry if you were offended.

[54anickel]

13. Not offended. I didn't mean to come off quite so terse. I've been dealing with some

of my own spiritual issues lately. Having my understanding of God placed under a microscope by a group of "born again" pastors has made me a little touchy about my spiritual life and I've always been extremely sensitive when it comes to prayer.

Didn't mean to snap. :blush: :hug:

[HopeOverFear]

14. It's quite alright. I totally understand.

:hug: I hope things get better.